Participation, Leadership and Visibility – Sarah Styles, Victorian Government

This transcript has been lightly edited by AI

Sean
Very happy to welcome Sarah Styles. She's director at the Office for Women in Sport and Recreation of the Victorian Government. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Sarah Styles
Thanks for having me, good to be here.
Sean
Not a problem at all. I always start asking people how they got their start in the world of sports business. What about yourself? What was your first foray into the world of sports business?
Sarah Styles
How long do we have? So for me, in a straightforward sense, it was years ago this year, so when I actually was approached by a recruiter who was supporting Cricket Australia at the time about whether I might be interested in sport. So that's the short one. By chance at the time, Cricket was effectively looking for a female investment banker interested in sport.
Bit of a small Venn diagram in Australia and they happened to reach out to me. I started my career in &A at Macquarie. I wasn't still doing that at the time, but I'd started my career there. And yes, I'm a woman and I happen to own a business in sport. So even though that wasn't specifically cricket, I think they kind of had an inkling, hang on, maybe this person might be open to a chat. And they didn't realize they were offering me absolutely a dream role because reality is…
since I was a teenager, I'd always wondered like, you know, how do you do that? You know, how do you start working in sport? And, you know, I now know the answer would be, you know, you start to, you know, you do your research, you do your networking, things like that. But when you're a teenager, when you're in your twenties, you don't really know. And for me, it just happened to, you know, come knocking.
Sean
So you're saying there that you're right, that weird Venn diagram that you happen to match, what was, why was that the qualities that they were looking for from a cricket Australia point of view?
Sarah Styles
I think I was a bit fortunate. The executive director who was doing the hiring at the time had come from outside of sports management. And these days I think he's running a robotics company in Hong Kong. So hi Alex, if you happen to see this. But he had a particular idea of the skillset that he had wanted in this role. And this role was head of female engagement, it was called at the time. And Cricket Australia, the way that it was passed on to me was…
in their strategy team, they had a couple of management consultants that when you're probably thinking strategy style roles, people probably go that way. But he's like, well, I've already got a couple of them over there. And he was thinking about, well, what is the breadth of skills that I think I'm going to need in this role? Because this was a brand new role. Cricket had not had it before. They had really strong ambitions to quicken the pace in terms of what they were doing for women and girls. And so kind of the breadth of skills.
that the EGM who happened to be doing the hiring, he's like, well, where can I find that? I know I'm going to be able to find it in an investment banker because, you know, an investment banker, you're not a management consultant, but you need to know how to do strategy. You're not a lawyer, but you need to be able to, you know, translate and sometimes draft legal documents. You're not a comms expert, but you're drafting public market documents. And, you know, you're not a finance expert, but you're doing financial modeling. So you're kind of having to be a little bit of everything.
but also used to working with a really wide range of stakeholders. So he happened to be the right person and pointed them in my direction.
Sean
I mean, it's a triv – I guess opening. That's why I always ask how do people get their start because you're right. Some people will start volunteering in their local club and then working for a state organization or working for a club and sort of work their way through sport. And there is a tendency for sport to then keep recruiting from the world of sport thinking that it's some fountain of knowledge you must have to be working in sport. And they're the only people that can when really, like you just said,
the description of what you can learn from other industries and myself is a similar case. I was a geek before sports geek and brought those skillset into the world of sport. I think it's something a lot more sports teams and hirers should be looking outside. Yes, there is an advantage to bring someone from an adjacent sport or in your own sport, but bringing that complete different thinking and skillset helps widen the scope of everything that you can do internally.
Sarah Styles
Yeah, exactly. And especially if you've got a sport that is looking for how do we do something differently, you know, if they want to keep doing the exact same thing that they've always done, then they should keep looking for the people who've done that. But, you know, where you had somebody who's like, okay, well, what is, you know, what, where are we trying to go? What is the challenges that this person is going to be presented with him landing on? Well, I know the skill set and like, let's be honest, they probably did look within and because they'd been trying to fill the role for about six months.
when they ultimately found me. But you're right, there's so many people, men and women alike, who would not currently be working in sport that would be sitting there kind of going, God, I wonder how you do that? Because I mean, I did for years. And I remember towards the end of my time at Macquarie, there was a young guy who worked there whose dad happened to be a prominent person working in the footy world. And I can remember thinking like, should I ask if it can maybe hook me up for a coffee?
And I'm like, nah, I can't do that. Like, you know, nobody, I'll be honest, his dad happened to be chair of the AFL at the time. So like, you know, not a small figure. And I'm like, no, I can't do that to him. That's not kind. You know, nobody wants to be hit up for that. So I just left it and sort of had moved on and had moved into my first corporate strategy role. And, you know, we're talking, it's pretty much odd months later that the contact came and…
I can remember it because I was actually down at Medibank at the time. I was working on the IPO, which is when the federal government was selling Medibank, putting it on the stock market. And it was actually a really good place to work. And it was a really good role to have. And I just really dived into it when this contact came. And I remember it so clearly because it is the only time in my entire life I've actually spontaneously facepalmed.
because they're like, there's a strategy role we want to talk to you about. And I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty happy where I am. And kind of thinking it was going to be at a bank or something saying, by the way, where was it? Thinking I might be able to point them towards a friend. And they're like, it's actually at Cricket Australia to run their new women's strategy. And spontaneous face palm in the middle of the office of like, they could have said anything else. And I doubt I would have even blinked, but they said that.
Sarah Styles
And yeah, you know, the rest is history.
Sean
So like you said, head of female engagement was a completely new role at the time for cricket and needed new thinking and you're effectively coming in there as a change agent. What were some of the things that you, like what was, you know, getting your feet under the desk, looking at the organization, but then also, you know, what was, I guess the remit and what was asked of you in that role?
Sarah Styles
So it was actually a wonderful role to have because for a range of reasons, I mean, cricket really had the motivation that it wanted to do better. So I wasn't necessarily having to come in and justify, hey, you know, everyone, we should think about this. But it didn't have too many preconceived notions of what it should look like, which meant really a lot of flexibility, a lot of kind of open -ended, well, what might this be able to look like?
It was an interesting one because they had been trying to hire somebody for an extended period. When I got there, I can remember I was like about, I don't know, a week and a half in and like, all right, so what's the strategy? I'm like, I'm literally figuring out where the bathrooms are. Like, you've got to give me more time. So there was a bit of urgency around, no, we need you to do this now. And I think for me also learning how the cycle of sport worked was an interesting one. You know, here I am, I started in November.
thinking, okay, I've kind of got this summer to figure out how does the business of sport work and got to go to Adelaide Oval for the first time and I was up watching the heat and this type of thing. And then I'm like, and then you got next year to figure out what you're gonna do and then you got next summer to do things, not remotely how the system works. So that summer you had, how does this thing work? and by the way, what's the strategy and everything? So you're ready to pitch for budget and everything at the end of that summer.
and then, you know, start to then put those plans in place. So, you know, there was a lot of learning getting up to speed really quickly. I think as well, I mean, ultimately where we landed was any touch point cricket could have with women and girls. We felt we could do better. And, the action plan that I ended up drafting over those first sort of, it was more four to five months of like, I look back at it and it's almost not a strategy. It's actually more of a review, like quite a
deep dive review into where is the sport at and where are some of the things that they could do. But in saying that, I'm not sure how many people actually read it. So, you know, a lot of learnings for myself doing something like this for the first time. And, you know, how do you really build engagement with a strategy and everything like that? So, yeah, we took the touch point that anything that we, any touch point we have with women and girls, we could do better. And that original action plan landed on five areas of focus. So.
Sarah Styles
ranging from your participation through the talent pipeline up to the Women's Elite game. But specifically in the Women's Elite game, it was more about how do we build an off field focus and actually build fans. And I'll come back to that because this was so much fun. And then there was also around women and girls as fans of men's cricket, because this wasn't specifically a women's sports strategy. It was the full game as well as the workforce piece. So, you know, it was a very
broad approach. But I think particularly when I think back to that time, one of the key lessons that I learned was at that point there was seven members of the Cricket Australia executive and they each had their own perspective on how the role was meant to work. And ultimately the person who hired me about six months later, he's decided to leave. He's off to Hong Kong and his robots. So I'm then left with an extended period of actually not having an executive team member.
up until Kevin Roberts joined his COO in late, sort of what's that, it must have been, he would ultimately go on and be CEO for a time. So, you know, a real lesson that I took from that time was when you do step in and you've got this change mandate, how you can make sure your higher ups, there is a sense of consensus in terms of how your role is meant to work that will save an enormous amount of time in the back end when you're constantly feeling like you're doing whack -a -mole.
to get everybody sort of thinking in the right direction.
Sean
Yeah, definitely. I mean, in that learning curve, especially, you know, the process and the methods you would have used, you know, in banking at Medibank of building out, you know, having that time and that bandwidth to build out that strategy and roll it in between station plan. But yeah, sport hasn't quite got to that level of documentation and I guess corporate governments and, you know, you're doing strategy that way. There's very much, well, we're playing next week or this summer or this tour is coming up. We need to address it. So it's a bit of
Sarah Styles
All your six days in, what's the strategy?
Sean
Yes, you're doing that review, but you're also trying to identify things you can, having those small wins. And then the other part, you're just discussing there of actually having the corporate structure that makes that job role functional is important.
Sarah Styles
Yeah. And I mean, I was on a massive journey myself. Ultimately, when I came across, what was the version that I had engaged with sport? For the most part, it was around being a female fan of men's sport. And as a kid, I loved getting a chance to come to Melbourne. And if I did, it was almost certainly to watch sport or play sport. So for me, it wasn't so much around coming across to grow women's sport, which you've got to think years later.
Now I get the great fortune to run the Office of Women's Sport and Recreation. Clearly, transformational moment for me to come across, learn about the Australian Women's Cricket team, learn about who played for them and what they'd achieved. And me being like, hang on, what are you talking about? You've got this thing good to go. Like you think about competitive football codes who ultimately had to build talent pipelines and create competitions. I already had a world championship team. They were almost at that point, years old.
There had been a national competition for women's cricket in this country since the s. I instead needed to take these incredible athletes, and this is where it got a hell of a lot of fun, that sense of how do we tap into a fan base? And at that point, they had no social media presence. They had a Twitter account that only live tweeted games and then was inactive at all other times.
It was genuinely hard to be a fan of women's cricket. At the same time in the background, there had already been the conversations around how do we create the WBBL, which almost launched a year earlier than it ended up launching, which not that many people know about. So that meant that first full year we're also building the WBBL, which just really kicked off in addition to what was going on in a range of the other sports, the momentum around women's sport that we then saw from…
but yet that was a lot of fun because even in the other parts of the strategy where perhaps things were pretty tough and you really felt like you were pushing water uphill on a lot of days when you were around the women's game, no one had been doing much. And that's not meant to sound, I hope that doesn't come across as, you know, disrespectful for the people who'd been working really, really hard. It was just that lens of almost this startup mentality of building a fan base and thinking about it through the lens of marketing and
Sarah Styles
a product, it hadn't been thought of that way because it had mostly been thought of in terms of high performance people, very passionate operations people of, okay, well, if we tweak this rule or we do this thing instead of actually, how do you just simply make them popular?
Sean
And so it was your role in the end because you're effectively touching, I guess, different parts of the business, whether it be the elite level, whether it be the national teams, you know, the sport itself with the WBBL, you know, that sat alongside the BBL, as well as, you know, community and just grassroots participation. Were you then consulting to different, I guess, departments inside Cricket Australia and sort of seen as a resource to say,
Hey Sarah, how can we, like in some instances they had to rewire their thinking because it was always, when's the next men's tour? Everything around the summer is, you know, baked in around that. Was that sort of your role of being that internal champion, but also internal resource for everyone at Cricket Australia?
Sarah Styles
Yeah, spot on. And one thing that they did really well and how they created the role was the role could have been in a range of different departments, but they put it centrally reporting to what then became the COO role. So you had independence. So, you know, say you were in the community sport area and then you're trying to go into a conversation around broadcasting. The question might be asked, well, hang on, why are you here? But by putting me one step removed. And so I sat next to the strategy team.
I sat next to the government relations. I was the appendix in the management chart because I was the one bit off to the side that didn't have my own team. It meant that you had the flexibility of being able to go into any room and that sense of, okay, yeah, we understand why Sarah's here. There was probably the only time it fell down was as we started having a lot of traction around what we were doing around the women's game. And ultimately this built up to, you know, the TWorld Cup final, MCG, all those wonderful things.
probably the one area it started getting tricky was this sense of, hang on, if we want to have a conversation around men's sport, we better not have Sarah in the room because then she's going to talk too much about the women. So that was probably the tricky bit when you're trying to sort of say, okay, on one hand, yes, you know, I'm glad people see me as this most passionate champion of the women, but at the same time, there's also the role of female fans of men's sport. And, you know, if you track the men's big basher league this is,
and their crowds in terms of like when it has grown and when it's perhaps trailed off and now growing again, that will map perfectly to the representation of women and girls in the crowd. So that was probably the bit that did become a bit of a challenge around, no, we better not have Sarah here because what if she talks too much about the women as opposed to, okay, I can see the opportunity. We can think about this in different ways. How do we always have her in the room?
Sean
I mean, you made that fan pace alone is a is a massive role. Yeah, across all sports in making sure hey, the product we are delivering is appealing to men and women, what are we doing to make it appealing to both and there's massive upside in that not you know, not not putting alongside all the participation pieces, the elite pieces like that's a like that's a massive win and you're right, it's been one of the big successes for both of the BBL.
franchises men and women to be inclusive and you know, you can't have families without men and women or women and women like it, you know, you need to be talking to all of them to have that success. You can't just have a strategy that, hey, we're gonna roll out there with aside and hope everyone turns up.
Sarah Styles
But I mean, particularly for the women's game, that was kind of the hope for a long time and sometimes still some sports that sense of, well, until the crowds come up, we're not going to invest as opposed to, well, what about you invest in and then the crowds come up. But I think what I tried to build in was this sense of, you know, what the past is the past and there's no point being embarrassed or ashamed or, you know, trying to change past because we can't do that. So how do we kind of have a really matter of fact approach to where we're at now? So.
My first series was middle of and away Asha series. So a few months out, you know, you're asking the question about, okay, this is coming up. What would we normally do? And this is where you're learning a lot because cricket historically does not promote overseas tours. And this is sort of more earlier days of digital is such an important like fan engagement platform. And so the answer was, well, we're doing nothing because it's not in Australia because we've got no tickets to sell.
And so, you know, we really flipped that around. And at that point in time, again, this team had existed for years. It's almost years old. It'll be years old this summer. And there's the big kind of anniversary test match at the G, the first day and night match at the G. And, you know, starting that conversation, so yeah, at that point in time, yeah, one third of Australians, sorry, well, I'll say it the opposite way, two thirds of Australians did not know that team existed.
And then over the next few months, you know, we build up the social media presence for the team, which really helped. And this is across the board for women's sport allowed you to actually go around the traditional gatekeepers of your newspaper editors or who's deciding what goes into the evening news or even what gets broadcast. And you can actually go directly to your fans and build your fan base for the first time. And I'll be honest, sometimes in those early days, it was literally me posting on the team's accounts because we didn't necessarily have the resourcing structure in there.
I can still remember getting an email one day saying I had just tweeted a photo that was actually an embargoed media opportunity. I'm like, sweet, all right, we're taking that one down. But that sense of how do we literally start with, okay, even people who work here don't actually know about this team. That's okay. That's where we're starting from. And it was little things like making sure every player, whenever they went to a team event, had a good looking name badge.
Sarah Styles
So no longer somebody was walking away kind of thing and, well, I just spoke to a really nice person who plays cricket for Australia. Instead they're going away with, I know who that person's name is. And it was things like creating little booklets of literally profiles of who all of these people were, their photo, their name, what was their role in the team? What were some of their stats? And sending them to not only journalists, to directors on cricket boards across the country. So they had this to build the awareness of who was actually in the team. So, you know,
and it sort of it built from there. That one series we increased the awareness of that team by a third and they won which always helps.
Sean
I mean, no, it does, but it's those building blocks that, you know, that hero building that has been something that's, you know, we've seen work in the last years across, you know, multiple digital platforms in multiple sports, but really it's something that, you know, women's sport has had to go to the well, had to fight for it and scrap for every bit of resource, had to job share and make sure that messaging gets out, but it must be pretty, it must.
must be pretty satisfying to then, like you mentioned before, to go to the MCG for a then record ,people for a World TCup final. For all the pushing and everything that happened to walk into that stadium, what was it like being the MCG on that night?
Sarah Styles
Well, if you saw me, particularly after it finished, it was, I mean, I've described it before as it was one hamstring away from a perfect game. Cause obviously Elise Perry wasn't playing after I think ripping her hamstring off the bone. If you'd seen me in the, like, it was literally like, you know, single tear dripping down the face, kind of like this is, this is, I can't believe this has actually happened. Cause even in those sort of five to six years prior, it wasn't always easy. I should say culturally, it was always,
a really good place to be, but that doesn't automatically mean it was easy. But even when it was difficult to get people engaged with that change was possible, it was possible to get them engaged in this lighthouse on the hill, which is in we're going to be hosting this event and we want this to be a big deal, don't we? So even when people are like, you know, circuit like, I think women's sports kind of is where it's up to and you know, it's just not going to get any bigger than that. You're like, okay, I can hear you. This is where you're at.
Because for me, there was a big part of how do you meet people where they're at? There's no point pretending they're somewhere else. You meet them where they're at. So it may not have been possible to get them, you know, with massive aspirations for the series that was just about to happen, but you could get them engaged with, well, we're hosting this. What do we want that to look like? And it sort of went from there. And I think the other thing is as well, like I said before, especially from that slot that
you know, got to the end of it's just been this game buster year. And then you're like, what about ? It's gonna be like, and it just went to a next level again, and a next level again, and a next level again. And you had all of these sports, because at this point, you've got AFLW coming in, NRLW, you've got Super Netball, that's just been reset after the ANZ Championship, you've got Super W appearing. On top of that, you've got, you know, as the women always do, phenomenal results at the Olympics. Like I think about the rugby sevens at Rio.
You know, you had all of these moments because reality is this movement is a rising tide that lifts all boats. and you know, that momentum as well as really great efforts from the sports as well, led to last year's FIFA women's world cup. And now you've got the Matilda is absolutely setting a new standard all over again. So, you know, the thing that's in my mind is how does that rising tide continue? Whereas I think probably at the moment you really have the Matilda is out there and you know, how does everyone else go along with them?
Sean
Most definitely. I mean, you've gone through that rise of women's sport that we're seeing both here locally, but also globally. How important was it? Because it was out there that, hey, Cricket Australia wanted to fill the MCG and get that record crowd. And it wasn't something that was done, at least in this part of the world, to sort of set a really high bar for a women's sports event. How important was that to sort of, like you said, to have that lighthouse for, say,
This is what we're chasing. If you're a supporter of cricket, if you're a supporter of women's sport, we need your support. Was that a real key plank and sort of a big statement to make, both internally and externally?
Sarah Styles ()
it was. And I mean, I think there's something in that around how are sports setting big, bold ambitions as opposed to perhaps, well, what if we set something and then don't don't achieve it? And I think there can be a risk aversion around that. But, you know, credit to Nick Hockley, I remember the day before, because at this point, you've got the the LOC that's been set up around the tournament and they're working through where they're going to host the big matches. And even the day before, I can remember I'd had people say, where do you think the finals going to be?
I don't know. I'm thinking SCG, Adelaide Oval. And I think I even said to somebody like, I'll be anywhere except the MCG. They won't go MCG. hours later, here we are, MCG. Yep, we're gonna sell this thing out. And it's a great example of like, you know, from little things, big things grow. Cause I remember sitting in Kevin Roberts' corner office with Nick Hockley and myself. And it was, I'm trying to think what year it must've been, whether it was
Cause it was not long after International Women's Day that year, maybe it was And we were sort of reflecting on at this point, Cricket Australia was starting to lobby the ICC around splitting the men's and women's Tinto two separate tournaments because it had been piggybacked, which meant the women's had just been completely invisible. Like you just didn't even know that it was going on. And so they'd been lobbying to split it. And it was, it was Kevin who said, well, you know, when's the International Women's Day in ? And literally it's pulling out the iPhone.
Sarah Styles
bit of a scroll through a couple of years quickly in the calendar. And I'm like, it's a Sunday. And it was literally the three I was looking at. It's kind of going, that could be interesting. And, you know, that goes to then some bold ambitions from Nick and his team around, you know what, let's go for the MCG and building it from there. If I reflect though on the last year's FIFA Women's World Cup though, what I felt that they did phenomenally well was that momentum was not just around the final.
And I think, you know, you really saw the world game in action there, didn't you, around, you know, so many of those matches, massive crowds, just momentum the entire way through. That just took things to a new level again. But that's what's great around these bold ambitions. You know, what's the, you know, the, the hallmark card, you know, what is it, you know, shoot for the moon. And even if you miss, you land amongst the stars. Somebody lifts the bar and you know what?
these other sports, they don't want to be left behind. So then they're pushing and then somebody else sets a new bar again. And this is the thing that I really want to be seeing over these next couple of years around where are those challenges going to come from? You know, I give the recent announcement around the private investment in WNBL. I'm really excited about that. Just this month, I think you've got the new person Emma Moore, who's coming across to run AFLW background is specifically in product growth. I'm incredibly excited about that.
Sean
Yep.
Sarah Styles
expansion of NRLW, you know, all these things, where is that spark that's going to continue to lift and set the bar whilst those of us are also working in the background to make sure sort of the structure around it when it comes to media, when it comes to sponsorship and other investment continues to be challenged to kind of level the playing field a bit.
Sean
Most definitely and like looking at global examples recently Angel City FC women founded soccer club You know, it looks like it's going to be Purchased for a record price by Bob Iger and Willow Bay, you know But backing Disney's to sort of get further Frank All things women's sport. I want to get into like you came to create a strafe for it for a dream role
Now you're working for the Office of Women in Sports and Recreation and you have for the last three years, what's your remit there? Because you have these big wins and there's a lot of people patting themselves in the back, a lot of people, part of that success, but the job's not done. So what's your role with the Office for Women in Sports and Recreation entail?
Sarah Styles
So we're really lucky here in Victoria that, as you say, we've got a dedicated office for women in sport and recreation. It's the only one of its kind in Australia. And I often sort of back that up with going, I can't wait till I can no longer say that because that means someone else has set one up. And, you know, hint, hint, Canberra. I think there would be a really good place for that.
So we are here to use the levers available to government to drive change and advance gender equality in sport and active rec. So when we say active rec, we're obviously meaning, you know, you're going out for a jog or a bike ride or something like that. So we work across the pillars of participation, leadership and what we broadly call visibility. So participation, you know, it's policy work around how do we ensure women and girls, and this bit's a bit of a mouthful, have gender equitable access and use to community sport facilities.
no more of the, sorry girls, you can't use the change rooms because the boys need it. No more, you can have the crappy over the crappy time because actually we've given all the good facilities to the men and then the boys and there's nothing left over. So really trying to unpick at the start this idea of this sort of second -class citizen mentality when it comes to women, girls and sports. So this month being July that you and I are speaking,
Every single program that the Victorian government has to fund community sport infrastructure, you have to as a local government, because that's who's actually applying for those things, have to have a policy in place to unpick this inequity in your region. You know, it's things like that. It's things like grants funding to clubs directly so they can create more opportunities for people to play or it might be opportunities for women to step into coaching roles or officiating roles, anything like that.
We oversee the board quota down here in Victoria. So to get funding from us as a sporting organisation, a state sporting organisation, you have to have at least % women on your boards. And that's been in place for a number of years now. And we track that quarterly. The most recent quarter had % of organisations doing the right thing. So that's just something that is just sorted here in a way that you don't really see in other places. In the visibility space,
Sarah Styles
you know, that's one that is really close to my heart. And it kind of goes to what we saw when I was at Cricket and we were building this thing, which is ultimately Australia has some of the like, well, I'll say it a different way. Australia has world class athletes, world class competitions. Honestly, they should be and sometimes are the envy of the world. You think about the number of opportunities for women to be elite athletes. But if you're only getting about % of sponsorship, if you're lucky.
and you're getting % of media coverage. And that's today as opposed to years ago where it was more like four to %. You are working into an extremely strong headwind. So for me, it's, I don't like wallpapering over cracks. I'm trying to fix the cracks. So we're trying to tackle, well, how do we go directly to getting more investment from corporate Australia? How are we working directly with the major sports editors to get them to understand the state of play and effectively pose the question to say, look, do you think that's good enough?
because I'm not necessarily here telling them how they need to go about doing their job, but I am here to challenge them to sort of say, well, do you think the current version is acceptable? Because I would put to you, it's probably not. And as I said in the middle, that leadership piece is a really big focus for us. Leadership is a bit of a worry when we think about sport at the moment. In the Victorian SSA system, so the State Sporting Association system, roughly about % of Victorian SSAs are actually run by women.
At a national level, I think, and someone, if you listen to this, feel free to correct me. My calculation is at the moment there are women that run an NSO or an NSOD. And that's out of roughly that are sponsored, or sorry, that receive funding from the Sports Commission. So the representation of women leading NSOs hasn't improved in decades and it's going backwards.
So there's something that needs to happen here at this national level where we've got these federated structures that is just, it is not working and that is not because of the women, it is because of the system. And there's something that needs to be happening there.
Sean
And so part of what you're doing is also funding research with universities like you have with women on boards in sport and how they become better governed and do it in recent findings. You're both either providing grants and getting that research to back that up as well as helping collect all the data that says, you know, ,people went to the MCG.
more people are going to games and watching games. There's a reason, you know, to convince the media players of, you know, people want to consume this content. We're seeing this rise of, you know, community content creators that, you know, potentially might put the traditional press organizations out of business because people will just go to the content that they want to consume. And if the big media businesses don't, don't throw their support behind it, they'll just be left behind because there'll be young.
Sarah Styles
I'm going to go to bed.
Sean
up and coming digital, I guess, organisations that will cover sport as people want to cover it, and that is men's and women's sport, that will see the change. So you're funding some of that research and also supporting people that are putting in those efforts.
Sarah Styles
Correct. Unfortunately for me, it's not enough for me to sometimes say, I swear this thing's important, can you please change? So actually having the evidence to back me up is helpful. So we commissioned some research directly ourselves. So for example, the work last year that showed for every dollar a corporate sponsor was investing in the visibility of women's sport, they were getting a $.cent return in customer value. That was one of our pieces.
our conversation of sport media deep dive earlier this year that showed that % coverage. That was something that was directly of ours. We then support a range of Victorian universities with research grants. And one of those recently landed, which was around, as you say, the, you know, confirming what we already knew and what there is global evidence that shows a gender diverse board is a stronger performing board. So that research showed by the efforts from the office as well as
organisations like Vic Health and Vic Sport and Sport and Recreation Victoria to make sure there were more women on boards. Because circa when this first started, it was roughly % of Victorian SSAs had that minimum representation of women. As I said, now it's So that showed that by doing that processes to actually bring people on board, professionalise, the level of skill on the board went up.
And also simply the experience of all women being in these spaces improved by the fact there was more women. And that's something that is universally accepted that the magic number is three. Once you hit three, and this is sort of for any group that is not the majority power group. So whether we're thinking gender, whether we're thinking through a multicultural lens, whatever that may be. Once you hit three, if you stop being there kind of forced in the corner of simply being a representative of your group.
And instead you're just simply having a diverse group of people having a good conversation. So having things like that, another one of ours that's a couple of years old now, but led to enormous change was funding that showed girls like choice with their sports uniforms. So, you know, perhaps this stereotype that teenage girls want to wear, you know, skirts or singlets, kind of debunking that and going, girls want choice. They don't want to have to wear white down the bottom because of concerns around their period.
Sarah Styles
They prefer to wear shorts, they prefer to wear t -shirts and ultimately just let them choose. And actually having that led to like the entire sport of netball changed their uniform policy. You know, cricket down here in Victoria purchased new gear for all of their underrepresented girls teams. So they're no longer being forced to wear white pants. You had AFL change a lot of their shorts. You had teams internationally changing their uniforms off the back of that. So.
Sometimes it's just what's this clear insight that then can be translated because for the most part, people are really well -intentioned in this space and they do wanna do the right thing. Like it's rare that you come across somebody that's just like, you know, stuff you all, you know, I'm in the s. For the most part, people are like, can you just tell me what I need to do? And I promise I'll go do it. And if you can break it down into straightforward, tangible actions, it happens.
Sean
Yeah, most definitely. And that's the thing. There is a whole bunch of changes and the success stories just keep coming, whether it is like you talked about before, the Matildas, I'm sure all my US audience are following the WNBA due to Caitlin Clark and she's just transcended the sport and driving more people into bigger stadiums. Again, debunking a bunch of those myths of
people won't watch women's sport, people won't watch women's sport on, you know, won't go to a game or won't watch it on TV. The other piece you were talking about before was that media coverage. I want to ask you about your, yes, your sports media program and in mentoring and helping more women get involved in the sports media and finding better mentors so they can find their way in the world of sports media.
Sarah Styles
This one does make me smile and I should say this program, its pilot came before me so it definitely wasn't, you know, that something that I started. But if I wind the clock back a few decades when I was a teenager and I'm trying to figure out, I think there's something around sport. I thought it was as a sports journalist and the first time I ever stayed in Melbourne, I had used my clippings from like the local newspaper and literally posted them in. I'm sort of giving up my age here a little bit.
to the Herald Sun, which is for people who don't know Victoria's largest newspaper. And I sent them in and I'm like, I think I want to be a sports journalist. Can I come do some work experience? And yeah, it was a kid down in the big sticks and then realised very quickly that no, I did not want to be a sports journalist, but many other people do. So what we've found here in Victoria is in the year leading up to the FIFA Women's World Cup, only % of sports news was focused on women's sport.
And this is a number that we're seeing triangulated around the world a little bit. We saw it out at the US. There was some work last year that said % over there. New Zealand has been doing some good work in this space for a number of years. And before they started actively intervening in it, they were also at that % mark. We also found that only % of sports news was able to be contributed by female journalists. And that figure is being lifted up by sports news on TV, because as in many parts around the world,
What does an acceptable face of TV news normally look like is a man and a woman next to each other presenting it. So there is opportunity that women's voices and perspectives are not being reflected in sports media. So what the office has done ever since our pilot in is exactly that, a professional development program for people who are keen on building careers in paid sports media.
So this is not necessarily someone who wakes up one day and kind of think, you know what, might be nice. I might have a go at it. These are people who've been trying and they might've been having, you know what, they've got their blog or they've had their, you know, a podcast they might be doing or they've had their newsletter, whatever they've been doing. They've been chipping away and showing this clear interest. But probably what they don't know is how do I actually get a job in this space? What are the networks that I need? How do I think about this career? How is this industry actually structured?
Sarah Styles
you know, do I want one job or is actually going to be a portfolio and what might that look like and how might I juggle this? Overlaid with, well, how do we actually learn some of these skills? Because it's not like you can duck down to your local cafe and just kind of, you know, pick something up. This is pretty unique skills. So it began particularly through the lens of AFLW and the original pilot was mostly around women who were women and gender diverse people who were really interested in football.
and creating some opportunities through their working with Emma Race and Lucy Race from making the call, who were extremely experienced broadcasters and producers who then were able to tap into their networks and bringing in experts of again, mostly women and gender diverse people, but as well as men as well, who could offer the perspective of this is how the industry is structured. This is what you need to think about. Are you interested in this space? Well, who can we connect you with? So there's now actually more than people.
who have benefited from the program. The program these days is split into two streams. So kind of our entry level, hang on, I'm trying to figure out how this industry works. I think this is something that could interest me as well as then our extension stream. And funnily enough, and I'm gonna date your podcast a little bit because it's today that we literally opened up applications for the extension stream. And that extension stream is for people who've either done the entry level program.
or what we call kind of exceptional relevant experience. So, you know, Melissa Barbieri is an example of this former Matilda's captain had done some media work, but then for a few reasons, it had kind of fallen away. And she was keen to understand, okay, well, how can I reset what my career could be in this space? And so she came in the first time that we had an extension program as somebody who hadn't done the first, but clearly knew her stuff and was at that level. So,
You know, we're working on mentoring, we're working on career planning, we're working on skill development, and just simply also one -on -one career guidance.
Sean
I mean, it's, it is a industry, like even like you said before, starting out many years ago, you want to be in a cadet, and you would have just been in that media organization for years and sort of went up the rungs, whereas the media landscape has changed so much in the past years, that idea that someone has one job with one organization, and they are a, you know, pay employee of one organization.
that's really gone out the window in the media space. And if you want to be a performer, whether it be in front of camera or in front of a microphone or even a producer behind the scenes, you might be picking up a piece of work over here, a tournament's coming in and they need someone to produce it or commentate on it. And it does become a really complex piece to navigate. It's not a straight shot as I'm applying for a job. If you want to sort of develop a media career, it is something where you've got to
be able to figure out that network, but then also know what those roles are, where they might be going, who the people are going to make those decisions. So it's tough, it's tough in any sense, but it's also potentially as tough if, you know, you don't have those connections and don't know where to start.
Sarah Styles
Yeah, but it's also for us, how do we communicate the breadth of what the media sector can actually look like? So I grew up in a very regional area that every single weekend, every single local footy game I could listen to on the radio. So people are commentating those games. You know, it doesn't have to be, I've never done something and now I want in on, you know, the Olympics coverage. It's actually might be, you know what? I live locally and I want to do this.
or perhaps actually I want to be working in a different language rather than simply English speaking media. We've had people come through it who I remember one aspiration which was they wanted to be the best statistician for AFLW. So they were the person behind the scenes who were actually feeding in all the really unique insights to the people who actually were on the air. I think about we've had people who've gone on and won like
global commentating competitions for ahead of the FIBA Women's Basketball World Cup. So like Marnie Vinnall, who's now in a full -time role over at the age, won her first Quill Award, which is a journalism award earlier this year. And like all these people, you're seeing all the unique paths they're taking, as well as some people like probably the highest profile person who's come through our program is somebody named Bryony Dawson.
and they didn't have a background in sport, they were a DJ and have since gone on and they've hosted nationwide sports programs and you know AFLW awards and a huge number of things so you know there is so many different perspectives on what a career can actually be and what's the version that works for them as long as and this is the big focus for us it is also about how women are building paid careers.
because as much as it is wonderful that people are able to do this as a hobby, people who are getting a chance to do it as a hobby and perhaps not getting paid, that's not changing the system.
Sean
Yep, but it does. I mean, the key outcome of it is also debunking that myth of, I'd like to cover that, but I've got no one to talk about it. I don't know anyone that knows that sport or, we don't have, it's like, don't know. We've got a whole bunch of people coming through that can be commentators, just statisticians, producers and the like. One question I want to ask you before we sort of wrap up. How, yep.
Sarah Styles
Yeah. Well, I was going to say on that, though, I should say sometimes sports actually get in touch with us as well. Like ice hockey is an example. So the Australian Women's Ice Hockey League, they got in touch to sort of say, OK, well, actually, do you happen to know somebody we knew somebody who'd come through our program who actually had played ice hockey when they lived in North America for a time. And so this sense of actually we know exactly who you should be talking to and.
connecting that opportunity and then that person's, you know, the commentator live streaming these matches. So there's also then that ability for people to come to us and so say, look, we're a bit stuck, we want to do better. Because again, often people want to do better. They just need that little bit of help, that little bit of tangible support. And then they're off and flying.
Sean
And you think, I mean, you said over participants so far, do you think you started to get that network effect, like you said, of the opportunities that are coming to you, but also, or also coming through the network where people are saying, you know, an opportunity comes someone in the network and they feed it back into the, into the group itself.
Sarah Styles
Very much so.
Sarah Styles
Yes, yes. And I mean, that's the thing. This stuff is also, you know, a career doesn't happen overnight, does it? So the people who are building their careers now will be increasingly moving into decision making roles, influencing roles, their ability to actually connect. And especially when people start to move about. I mean, we see it in sports administration and especially coming out of a sport like cricket.
where you do have this beautiful alumni of people who've moved across different sports and different organisations that you're seeing each other and being able to tap into each other. That's exactly what's going to be happening for these people as well.
Sean
Terrific. So one thing I want to wrap on was how can the sports industry and the people listening to this podcast whether they're in Victoria or not in Victoria support the change our game initiative or at least what it represents
Sarah Styles
For anyone who wants to, they can jump on changeyourgame .vic .gov .au, sign up for our newsletter so you get all the information directly from us. But ultimately, so much of this boils down to simply, take action. Where's that opportunity to, whether it is create an opportunity for a woman or a girl in sport, or conversely, take away a barrier that might be influencing or impacting their experience in sport. So, for men who are listening,
It could be something as simple as when you're seeing behavior that you know is going to be making people uncomfortable, call it out. Because you know what? You're able to call it out a lot more funnily enough than somebody who looks like me. It's just the reality of how this stuff works. So simply take action, look around, see what that chance is, put the hand up to volunteer and add your voice to the chorus of people who are talking up the opportunity in women in sport. As you say, the momentum that is happening.
is phenomenal and is never something that I take for granted but in saying that is overdue so I can't wait to see where it goes from here.
Sean
Most definitely. Sarah, I want to get to the Sports Geek Closing Five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?
Sarah Styles
the one that stands out is, funnily enough, it was a ODI at the G. I am early teenage years. I went with my brother who's two years older than me. I just absolutely loved every moment of it. Could not tell you who Australia was playing. I don't remember that stuff. That's not my version of, watching sport. I remember how hot it was.
We talk about three litres of water, which we had drunk before the opening ball. And towards the end of the day, there was all these people, because I'm in the Great Southern Stand, and there's all these people up behind me, including from teams who weren't playing, and they were all singing and dancing and just having the best time. And you know, you think for me, what I now do, it's moments like that. You think I'm a little country kid. You come along to this stuff and you're just like, I love every single thing about this.
Sean
Exactly for the internationalists. ODI is a one -day international and it's cricket. Sometimes they have to do some translations. That's no problem.
Sarah Styles
Yeah. It's cricket.
It's cricket and it runs for one whole day. So it started in the very heat of the day and it ran into the night and there was singing and dancing and don't even ask me what happened on the field, but it was amazing.
Sean
yeah, exactly. you would have been a lot of sports events in your time. Do you have a favorite food or a, or a go -to food when you're at a sports event?
Sarah Styles
I'm pretty stock -sandy. Can't go past hot chips drowned in sauce. I don't care how old I get that will never get old.
Sean
Most definitely. And like we said before, working with now networks and different people, what's the first app you open in the morning?
Sarah Styles
God.
I don't even want to call it X, I just don't. So I'll still call it Twitter. I'm still there, if anybody wants to jump on and follow me. I think I'm one of the few people who still are. But I miss the old version. I miss the pre -pandemic version because honestly, it was such an incredible place for people driving change in this space to share information, to show support.
And I genuinely get sad that that is not the case. You know, I hope it can recover one day.
Sean
Yep, you're not alone in I guess ponding for a pre -Elon Twitter and I guess what those days were like. Yeah, I think those days are gone, unfortunately.
Sarah Styles
I'm too old for TikTok, don't tell me I need to get on TikTok.
Sean
So then the next one is there someone that you follow and it might be someone on Twitter or it might be an author or someone that you work with or someone in the industry that the podcast listeners should give a follow and why
Sarah Styles
gosh, I wasn't sure we were going to go with that question. I thought you were going to say that sort of inspires me. And I was the first thing that came to mind was Ted Lasso. But you can't necessarily follow him. You know, the women who are leading in Australian sport, they're incredible. So, you know, even if it's just a jump on LinkedIn and follow them.
You know, women like Sarah Lowe, who has just landed over in Italy, who is the CEO of Softball Australia and is building that sport back up and going to be doing incredible things. Women like Rebecca Hamilton, who's taken over Judo. You know, Beck used to run Disney's theatrical productions here in Australia. And like bringing that lens of how do you build an audience to a sport like that.
Katherine Clark, who has been a CEO in the space for decades. You know, how do you jump on and follow them? And of course, make sure to follow your favorite women's teams as well, because you know, it is about how do you see what's coming up because you may not be seeing it in your mainstream media. And actually, Abby, I'm going to say one more, Abby from Her Way.
Sean
That's it.
Sarah Styles
who is this incredible year old out of Sydney who has her own sports media business that she has been now doing for three years. You know, it's people like that that you touched on it before. If mainstream media aren't gonna be covering these, other people will be. And it's people like Abby who are just doing great things.
Sean
Abby's a great example. And so are the other ones. Catherine Clark, been on the podcast and done a terrific amount of work at Paralympics Australia. Congratulations on that career. She just finished up. But yeah, Abby's a really great story of putting your hand up and saying, hey, I want to cover this. And it was still at a time when Twitter was still connecting and people were retweeting and sharing a little zine and those kinds of things. You could really see the community rally.
behind her and lift her up. And she will be a force to be reckoned with if she isn't already as she gets as she gets older. Lastly, what social media platform is your MVP?
Sarah Styles
You bet you will.
Sarah Styles
this is going to possibly make me sound like a geek myself. I think people underestimate the power of LinkedIn. I think it is a very flattering algorithm for regular posting. It is reaching people who are business minded. So who are the people who are making investment decisions? Who are the people who are in decision making roles? So
I think there's an enormous opportunity for women's sport to be showcasing their work through there. And I know personally for me, when I first started working in sport, not even on purpose, but that was the platform where I was just sort of sharing what was going on in cricket. And I kind of thought, well, if that reaches people, that's amazing, because that's people who weren't hearing about anything. And then, you know, became…
which became ,which became ,So admittedly, I've dropped the ball a little bit lately on the regular posting, but I just think the opportunity to be showcasing stories, real stories in there, let's be honest, there's a little bit of content in there that I'm sure would all be fine if that disappeared, I think is big for women's sports.
Sean
I don't think you're a geek in any way. And I use that as term of affection anyway, to say LinkedIn, I wholeheartedly agree. And I completely agree also on, you know, if you want to be telling your stories of what successes you are having at work in your role, you know, in whatever you're trying to achieve, LinkedIn is a great place to do it because you also have that, you know, your tribe will start supporting you. But then you also have that % are just lurking.
And then the next time you see them at a networking event, they're like, Sarah, I really like the fact that you're doing this, this, and this. And you really have no idea. You don't know the impact of some of that stuff. So it is great to tell the story and share your successes. And then, alternatively, you've seen it in being headhunted for roles. People know what you're doing. And then you don't know what other opportunities are going to come from what you do on LinkedIn. And you're right. The algorithm, since Microsoft's taken it over, I think
The algorithm from a content and a connection point of view is has really tweaked to business focused, folk and, and great storytelling. I reckon it's really definitely an opportunity for more people to do more storytelling.
Sarah Styles
You hit the nail on the head that it was literally an up -to -date LinkedIn profile that years ago was like, hang on, maybe we need to talk to this person with my golf business that happened to be on there being kind of the bit that really triggered it for them. But you can hit a tipping point that eventually you start to meet people and they will kind of go, hang on, I know you, I know you from LinkedIn.
which, you know, always a little bit of a worry when somebody says something like that. But it just helps you reach an audience in a way that you, you know, otherwise it's not possible to.
Sean
Yeah. And for those, you know, for those who are in a steady job or loving their job, doing it regularly is a good way to just say, Hey, this is who I, this is what I do. It's not, I'm only going to post on LinkedIn when I need a job or when I'm, you know, when I've lost a job. Cause you also do get that. You see that really quickly. I've just been made redundant and you're, and someone's in posting something. You're trying to reengage your whole network. Whereas if you're constantly telling people, Hey, this is what I've been up to.
It's very easy to tell your boss, I'm active on LinkedIn because I'm keeping my network engaged and telling them everyone all the great things that we're doing. But it really does show the value of a network and how it can help you down the path. And it potentially, and most of the time, will actually help you in the role you're in, whether bringing in new opportunities, finding the best candidates, those kind of things, because you've got better visibility of what you do and what your network potentially does.
Sarah Styles
But on couldn't say that about myself.
Sean
Well, thank you very much, Sarah. I really do appreciate it, you coming on. We've just given LinkedIn its flowers. I'm assuming LinkedIn is the best place for people to connect with you as your meeting room for those not listening. As the lights have literally go out, people can reach out to you on LinkedIn.
Sarah Styles
I was going to say, as the lights literally go out over here.
Sarah Styles
Yes, they sure can. Although I should say I'm about to go and leave because I'm about to go to the Olympics. So don't get angry at me if you don't hear back from me for a while.
Sean
Well, Trimig, thank you very much for coming.
That's no problems. Enjoy Paris and enjoy the Olympics and we'll talk soon.
Sarah Styles
Thanks so much.