David Barton-Ginger on developing the All-Blacks digital presence for a global audience

261 – David Barton-Ginger

Sean: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 261 of Sports Geek. On this week's episode, I chat with David Barton Ginger about his career at New Zealand Rugby and the growth of the global powerhouse that is the All Blacks. 

DJ Joel: Welcome to Sports Geek, the podcast built for sports digital and sports business professionals. And now, here's your host, who is not a good karaoke partner, Sean Callanan.

Sean: Thanks DJ Joel. Yes, my name is Sean Callanan, and those of you who have been to Seat Conference, especially the one in Las Vegas, know I am a terrible singer. Absolutely terrible karaoke partner. Um, so much so that I got thrown out of a venue for jumping the line for singing a bad version of Hey Ya. And I think, uh, if my recollection is correct, there is a version of that on the internet, thanks to Russell Scobetti.

Uh, but, uh, [00:01:00] for now. Yes, I can do everything else but karaoke. With a microphone I can do podcasting, speaking, a little bit of comedy, but don't get me to sing. If you want to reach out to me, you can do so in a multitude of ways. At Sean Callanan on Twitter, Sean Callanan on LinkedIn if we're not connected.

My apologies. I really do try to connect with as many people as I can, especially listeners of the podcast. So if you want to connect with me the old fashioned way, you can use email Sean at sportsgeekhq. com. Um, before I jump into this week's episode with David Barton Jr. from New Zealand Rugby. Just a quick shout out for the Patreon campaign.

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com slash two six one. Well, let's get into it. Here is my chat with David Barton Ginger from New Zealand Rugby.

Very happy to have David Barton Ginger, Digital Channels Manager and Head of Digital at New Zealand Rugby and the All Blacks. Uh, welcome to the podcast, David. 

David: Thanks Sean. That has taken us a little while to, to get to connect with each other, hasn't 

Sean: it? It has both [00:03:00] in, in time to organize this interview and actually get this interview started.

So, and maybe at some stage we will release the failed attempts of technology. Uh, where we have half sentences, it was like having a, uh, a podcast interview with Uncle Buck, uh, where both of us were having half sentences, but fingers crossed, uh, we've got everything in line now that this will be, uh, an interview that's listenable.

Um, so. First of all, getting started, uh, David, you've been at New Zealand rugby since 2004, uh, which is, you know, eons, if we sort of count digital years like dog years, which every year is, is seven. Um, my seven times tables, not that good, but 17 years at, uh, at a sporting organisation. Um, is, is a great inning so far, but how did you get, how did you find your way into New Zealand rugby in 2004?

David: Yeah, look, I'd been in banking, uh, for about 10 years actually, before that. Um, I'd been over in London for about five years and the investment banking [00:04:00] scene over there. Um, my wife and I got pregnant and came back to New Zealand and, uh, I got pregnant. Well, just after we got back, I had a friend who happened to be working for New Zealand Rugby Union and, um, at the time they didn't have any control over their own website, which was nzrugby.

1. nz back then. So, 

Sean: so is that just sold or effectively unsold to someone to say, can you guys manage it? That's how it was at that point? 

David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was a partner of ours who was running it at the time. Um, and they had their own, uh, journalists there who we used to, to, to run the content on it.

And what tended to happen was that, um, you know, we would give them a media release to put up and it would take two or three days to go up. And, and every now and again, there'd be a story appear on, on the site, which wasn't, overly complimentary to New Zealand rugby. And I think that those were probably the, um, the initial reasons why we decided, [00:05:00] uh, to bring that back or that control back to New Zealand rugby.

And, and it was at that point where they, the other party said, right, we've got, you've got six weeks and then we're going to turn it off. 

Sean: Yep. 

David: So, um, so six weeks, 

Sean: when someone says six weeks, you've got to, you know, migrate a whole platform across. If someone said that now. You'd be sweating bullets because you'd have all this infrastructure and different architecture.

What does the All Blacks or New Zealand Rugby at that stage website look like in 

David: 2004? Look, it only consisted of probably, I don't know, half a dozen to a dozen pages. 

Sean: Yep. 

David: Um, you know, it still had a bit of content on there. Um, you know, when it comes to teams and things like that. different competitions, domestic competitions at the time.

And, and so I came in, um, I literally had an interview, I think it was on the Friday, um, and started work on the Monday. Um, and so, yeah, it came in and the first thing that I decided was, look, there's [00:06:00] no way we're going to come up with a new design website. So, um, I picked a small web development agency here.

So we were the big fish in a small pond. Yep. And, um, And said, right, I want you to just replicate that site. So I think essentially they just ripped off all the HTML, um, from the, from the internet and, um, and when we went to cut over, they turned the site off. We turned ours on and essentially it looked like exactly the same website.

Um, and what that did was buy us time to then sit back and go, right, how do we want to play this from here? 

Sean: Because yeah, really 2004, it's not like you had a whole bunch of options around CMS and those kinds of things. It's like, you know, you don't, whereas these days if someone said, Hey, build a website, you can go, Oh, we can use WordPress or we can use a, you know, a CM, a commercial CMS that's out there and pay for that.

And those kinds of things, this was again, early, early web, primarily. Bespoke HTML built, um, uh, [00:07:00] that pretty much what was, what sites were put together. 

David: Exactly, mate. It's all it was. So it was, uh, it was, it was, you know, really just a pamphlet sitting online more or less, um, with a whole lot of information on it, done in HTML.

And that's what I'd, I'd, I'd actually, um, when I had a break over back in New Zealand, uh, during my banking days, I actually did a, um, uh, HTML. Internet course or diploma. And so, um, that kind of qualified me for coming in and knowing what I was doing. So, um, so, you know, it was good. Yeah. 

Sean: So pretty much you came in pretty much on a, on a tech focus role, cause that's what you've done in the banking space, uh, in, in building websites and playing around with what was digital then and, and web and those kinds of things.

Uh, that was pretty much, I guess, your intro into the, into the business because things like, a little bit different to that. Yeah. 

David: Was it? Sorry. It was a little bit different to that. So I was [00:08:00] more, I was actually a foreign exchange dealer and, um, and I just decided I'd wanted to get out of banking. And, um, when I'd come back to New Zealand, I'd, I'd, I'd actually.

I actually tried to get into photography and it was really at one, at that point in time there was only one decent photography, um, institution here in New Zealand and I was two weeks late to get into the course. 

Sean: Yep. 

David: And so I, I actually met a, a girl at a party who had said, Oh, I've just done this internet course and it's amazing.

And, and, um, I was driving along for actually, maybe I could. Do something there and, um, use my business knowledge and then, you know, my creative side and, and, um, and get into the internet side of things. And that's why, why I chose to do the diploma and never really looked back. 

Sean: Oh, that sounds very much like a sliding doors moment.

I mean, you could be on a photography podcast right now if you'd have, uh, been able to, uh, uh, get to that course. Um, indeed. So, so we've just gone through, um, uh, a Rugby World Cup, [00:09:00] um, you, this, that was your fourth rugby world cup that, that you've, that you've been, been through. Yeah, I 

David: think it was. So it was what, oh 7, 11, 15 and 19.

Sean: Yeah. So, so how have, I mean, each of those sort of milestones sort of. Uh, point to like the different explosions of, of digital and social, like 2007, it was, was like at the epicenter of when that stuff was starting, starting, like that social media really wasn't a thing yet. And then you effectively had the 2011 one, which have, you know, spoken to Shane Harmon about, he was working on the Rogue World Cup in 2011 when Facebook and Twitter were starting to be real big players in the space and people were trying to figure it out.

How, how have How have your campaigns changed? From a digital perspective, through those Rugby World Cups. 

David: Yeah, incredibly. Um, and really fortunately for, for me, um, 2007 [00:10:00] was our worst World Cup we'd ever had. Um, and fortunately, at that point in time, we didn't have any kind of social media. Um, presence. I don't really think that it started up too much by then.

So essentially we went out in the quarterfinals, um, and that competition, and it was really just shut down and go and work in a garden for a couple of days. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't listen to radio, 

Sean: right? 

David: Indeed. Indeed. Don't listen to radio, don't watch TV, and then you were fine. Yeah. And then, for the next two, we obviously won those, uh, in 2011 and 2015.

Um, so, you know, it was, it was pretty, um, pretty good. Easy from my perspective, because you weren't really trying to manage any And you didn't have all these, um, haters, you know, having a go at you because you just won two competitions. Um, and so look, I mean, it's a long way back now looking at [00:11:00] 2011, but, uh, the, the, the key differences there really.

So 2011 we were running, uh, the World Cup. It was in New Zealand. Yeah. Um, whereas in 2015, um, that was over in England. And really the, the biggest. The differences there, um, were around, um, the fact that you had to deal with these time shifts, uh, time zones, you had a team here, um, that was, you know, both from, would have different shifts, um, going through to 11 o'clock at night in 2015, um, whereas in 2011 it was actually quite easy because you could do it all in your working day, so to speak.

Um, so those were the really the key differences and. We had Instagram come to the mix by then. It wasn't really that big. Um, so yeah, it was really just the tools that we had at the time and the time differences that were the key differences. 

Sean: And, and also I guess through that time, through [00:12:00] winning the World Cup twice, um, the All Blacks have, have become and the mystique around the All Blacks have become a, a global brand.

How do you, how do you balance? I guess the, the local, um, the local focus being, you know, new Zealand's team to, I guess also addressing that, that global audience, that the all, all blacks are attracting. 

David: Yeah. So I mean, over 80% our audience live offshore, um, or our, our fan base offshore. Um, so the, the key difference really is that in New Zealand when it comes to rugby, probably the biggest.

We've got here is that you got so much rugby that people start to tune in, you know, and looking for others. Whereas the off sport is just, you know, so, so, um, you know, [00:13:00] gagging to get as much rugby or All Blacks. content as they can get. So, um, it's really about what content to work in those two markets and, and, um, and yeah, so we, we do put a focus on that.

We have people within here that focus more on that internet content that, um, our global audience wants. We do, um, some geo targeting of our content to make sure information is more relevant to them. Um, so those are like a couple of key things. that we look to do. Um, then around Rugby World Cups, in terms of, of our local, we, we, we do big campaigns before, before each World Cup, where we send the All Blacks out into the community.

So it's about connecting with our local fan base here. Um, we send out three All Blacks, um, so three All Blacks to different parts of the country and, usually parts of the country or small towns that wouldn't ever [00:14:00] see them normally. Um, so it's a really nice way to connect with our local audience and really garner that support before they leave.

Um, and then once they leave to go to a world cup, it really is about connecting with that global fan base and primarily that's done through digital channels. So, um, you know, there's a, there's a big, big audience out there and, and the only way they can connect with the All Blacks is through digital. So it's an incredibly powerful tool for us.

Sean: So you talked a little bit, talked a bit about, uh, I guess the, the, the global piece and the, and the geotargeting of, you know, so I've spoken to some of the big, uh, Premier League clubs and the big football clubs that also, uh, uh, playing around with that, with localizing content for different regions. How important is that to you?

Uh, for you guys, because other to, to be able to connect with those regions in, in that sort of, I guess, local, local manner and making sure some of the messages are getting tailored for those different audiences. 

David: Yeah. Look, it's [00:15:00] really essential actually, I think, because it's all about being relevant to the audience.

Um, and so, uh, we, we tend to also work closely with our Our partners, the AIGs, the Adidases and, um, and bikes, um, to tailor content for those particular audiences. Um, you know, we do, there was a big AIG, um, brand campaign, um, we've run since 2017 over there. Um, so we get, we create some content, we, we look to you, um, you know, with multilingual content where we can.

Um, so. We tend to, we tend to try and do as much as we possibly can with the resources that we've got. The benefit that we've got as an All Blacks brand is that, you know, no matter what we put out there, our own base [00:16:00] usually, Um, can't get enough of particularly on, you know, in the offshore scene. 

Sean: It is, um, it is, I think, uh, um, the All Blacks is a really good example of, of sports brands in that how, how big they are.

So All Blacks being a massive global brand, um, but the resourcing for the, the global brand You know, it doesn't match the size of the size of the rank. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, cause people go, Oh yeah, they're all blacks. You must have, you know, thousands of, you know, this team of, uh, people to be able to do all of these things.

What, what does your team look like? And what does the makeup of the team look like? Whether it's. In a regular, regular year, but then also what, what do you do to scale it out, uh, around something like the Rugby World Cup? What are the kinds of resources you have to, to lean on, to be able to, to service this global fan base?

David: Yeah. You'd be surprised. Um, so look, I ran it by myself for 10 

Sean: years. 

David: We're up to a team of [00:17:00] five now. So we have myself and another guy who's a, um, a content, content. Producer, um, who sits, um, alongside me. We have now two full time writers. Um, and then we have a, a full time videographer. Um, and so that's not only with the all Blacks, but also all the teens and Blacks.

So we have the Māori all Blacks, we have the Blacks, and so the women's version of the all Blacks. Um, we have men's and women's, sevens, teens. Um, and then a couple of other teens who are under twenties. Yeah. Um, so we've got a bunch of teams and at some point in the year, they're all traveling around the world and we tend to have, um, if not our full time videographer, um, traveling with them, we will have a couple of contract videographers who we also use.

Um, and then look, when we scale up, we also have another couple of writers or journalists who we tend to lean on as well in terms of, um, written [00:18:00] content. Um, and we'll In terms of the, the, the five of us who are on here, the key thing that we look for now that we perhaps didn't do, you know, five years ago, if not longer, was, um, really having the ability to, to multitask.

So, now we wouldn't take on just, you A content editor, we need someone that can write plus shoot video plus edit, um, So there's 

Sean: all round players because you've got so much demand of multiple, multiple pieces of content? 

David: Completely, completely. And, um, and what we're finding now is instead of using a, you know, 12, 000 camera for everything, um, we're starting to shoot a lot more on the likes of your iPhone.

Um, So, um, And have a, you know, a mic that goes into your phone and, and, um, and edit that up and not be quite as produced as what we have done in the past. And now it's really about getting that, [00:19:00] um, that information or that story out a lot quicker and, and actually being able to, you know, have the, the tools in place.

So each of those team members can do that themselves and get it out onto our channels. 

Sean: And it's, yeah, and it is that, that speed, like the fans want it, Faster and more of it. And they don't mind to lose a little bit of Polish. You've still got to set your bar high enough, but it's much better to the shorter, sharper videos and those kinds of things that that's what you're seeing that the fans want.

David: Yeah, absolutely mate. And cause what, you know, once you've got a couple of media organizations here in New Zealand, and I'm sure it's the same anywhere else that, um, you know, you can go and try and do a nice Polish video, but if you haven't, if you haven't beaten the six o'clock news at night, 

Sean: Yeah. 

David: Um, then all of a sudden it's just not as current as you know, as what it should be.

Um, so we've really got to try and beat those, those media networks now. Um, and otherwise you just don't get the cut through, particularly New Zealand. Probably it'd be okay offshore, but, um, [00:20:00] you know, even now the offshore audiences have tuned into, you know, the different, Media networks, websites, and, and, um, digital channels.

So, so how do 

Sean: you, so how do you manage a team in multiple locations, multiple countries with the, I guess, the, the, uh, the, the motto of, Hey, we've got to get it out fast and be fit to be first. And we still want to hit our, our brand marks, those kinds of things that we've set up. How do you, how do you manage that team?

David: You know, look, so we have like a couple of mottos there, really. Um, so the first one is that, um, we want to be on the shoulder or we want the fan to feel like they're on the shoulder of the team. 

Sean: Yep. 

David: Um, and then the other thing is really about using our unfair advantage. And so what that means is that it's really our access to the team that, that.

Um, you know, really sets us apart from media organisations. Um, and then it's really about, um, capturing those [00:21:00] moments where if anyone comes into any of our social channels or onto our website, they feel like that, you know, they're, they're almost Getting a story of what's going on each day of, you know, being with the All Blacks.

Sean: Yep. 

David: Whether it's on game day or any day during the week. And, you know, and sometimes we do that better than others, um, but it's certainly something that we use as our North Star in terms of measuring whether we're doing a good job or not. And, and, you know, we certainly get that. great feedback from our fans if we're doing a good job at that.

Sean: So from a, um, I guess team collaboration point of view, how do you coordinate it? Because it's, you know, a lot of people will have, you know, a videographer on the road or someone that's shooting some material because like to be the, you know, put the fan on the shoulder, you sort of need someone there, you know, pulling out a phone as the guys are getting off a bus or as they're walking out on the track for a, for a captain's run or, or, or whatever.

So you're. Capturing this bit of content. How do you [00:22:00] coordinate that with your team? 

David: Yeah, look, it's, it's a lot easier now than what it was. Um, so what we tend to do now is, uh, WhatsApp is a really, you know, well used piece of kit that we use now. So, um, instead of our people on the ground having to capture it and edit it, um, What tends to happen a lot now is we have a editing team back in the office and, um, you know, and those people who are capturing it can just WhatsApp that content straight back to the office and they're the ones there that can just put it straight up onto our social media channels.

Um, so that makes things a lot quicker and a hell of a lot more coordinated. Um, and in particular those tournaments where, you know, it is in Japan or the tournament is in England. Um, it just makes things so much easier. Um, so yeah, so WhatsApp and then we have another one that we use called Edit Mate um, dot com.

And, and, um, that allows us to [00:23:00] get a whole bunch of content or user generated content to come in, um, and for us to edit it here as well. Okay. And the, the bonus of that one is that, um, unlike WhatsApp, um. With Editmate, you don't lose any of the quality, so you still get a HD quality video that you can pretty much use on, on any platform that you want.

Sean: Okay. Cause if they're sending it via WhatsApp, it can get compressed and those kinds of things getting sent back. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just a bit of a coordination of that to effectively have effectively set those roles of you're someone that's capturing the content. We just want you to capture it.

We're not We're not stressed about you capturing it, cutting it up, figuring how to phrase Instagram and those kinds of things. It was all just getting sent back to a control center in New Zealand. 

David: Yeah. So in between, say 8am and 10pm New Zealand time, they would do that [00:24:00] outside of outside of those hours.

They would know that they need to do that themselves. OK, so just to just to give people a break back here. 

Sean: So part of that piece of, um, I guess your focus of having access to the team and that kind of thing, one of the things that has grown, you know, since, since the advent of social media and probably more so in the last, probably more so in the last four years, um, is the rise of, of players as, as brands themselves, especially in the digital space.

You know, we've seen the rise of, uh, player driven, player driven media and, and, and And players being media channels in their own right. You know, we see the reports of Cristiano Ronaldo getting nearly a million dollars for an Instagram post. You've got some pretty big stars that play. In the All Blacks, how do, how do, how do you manage that as a, both a, you know, it's partly a problem and opportunity on how you manage and make the players part of, I guess, the digital story, because they're a very big part, you know, they're the [00:25:00] stars in the, in the middle, but how do you, how do you weave some of their social in your overall strategy?

David: Yeah, look, that's really something that's coming to the fore now. Um, it hasn't been around for very long. Um, so I couldn't sit down here and honestly tell you that we've nailed it. But, um, the approach that we are going to take is about working a lot closer with our athletes. Um, so yes, while they have got big followings, um, none of them.

You know, match what we've got. And so I think where we can have a relationship where we can work together and it benefits both us and the athlete, you know, I think that that's a really good healthy relationship to have. Um, I'm a big fan of helping athletes set themselves up for while they're in all black, for example, for life after being in all black.

So what we tend to try and do or the ideas we come up with is, is [00:26:00] around, right, um, outside of being a rugby player, what are your passions? And so we try and work on those and say, right, well, let's tell a story about. You know, one of the, one of the players might be a hunter or a fisherman in his spare time.

Um, you know, let's do some episodes or episodic content around those. And so what will happen is after they're in all black, um, you know, they're setting themselves up to be picked up by a fishing show on, you know, on TV or something like that. And we've done it with a couple of our guys who have come, um, you know, gone on to, to be presenters on Sky TV.

Um, purely because of what they've done on allblacks. com. Um, so yeah, look, it's, again, it's something I think that will develop in time. It's just about fostering closer relationships with the players, which hasn't always been, um, the easiest thing to do because they're all scattered around the country. So we'll do things, um, you know, some ideas that I've gained off, off other, um, sporting [00:27:00] organizations when I was at the SEAT conference, for example, is simple things like creating WhatsApp groups between us, the player's agents, the player, often the player's wife, um, and, or partner, um, and maybe the, the player's association as well.

So, um, Um, I don't know if you've seen many, um, you know, on social media, you'll see, uh, football players when they, when they nut someone in a practice session, the first thing they do is turn around to the videographer and say, did you catch that? 

Sean: Um, 

David: you know, and so, and they've already got that, that network set up so that the videographer can just jump on the WhatsApp group of that player and forward them the content.

Um, and then you kind of, just by doing that, you're building a relationship with the player and, and, um, you get to a good space where I think everyone can win out of that relationship. 

Sean: Yeah. And I think the, the players that are coming through now, they're not players that have started to figure out social and digital.

They've grown up with it already existing, right? So the players that are coming through [00:28:00] now aren't, aren't going, Oh, I remember when Twitter and Instagram came in. It's been in their whole life and, you know, they were using it before they were an All Black. They see the advantages of building out their network.

So, um, Rez, you know, seven or eight years ago you were teaching the top players about these things and they were sort of using it because they may have been advised by their PR firm or their agent that they should be doing it. Um, I think you're going to see, yeah, more, more collaborative piece because, yeah, they should know, hey, if I'm, I'm featuring here, it will grow my social following.

And as you said, set them up for other careers, sell books, you know, promote their businesses, those kinds of things. So it's definitely a relationship that should both, that works for both sides. 

David: Completely, completely. 

Sean: And then looking at the, um, looking at the Rugby World Cup this year, um, what were some of your goals?

Before we dive into the stats and sort of geek out a little bit, what were some of your goals from a [00:29:00] digital point of view going into the Rugby World Cup in Japan? 

David: So, I think rather than from a digital perspective, um, you know, we, we do have Well, while we do have some, some figures that we would like to, to meet, um, it was really about using our, our channels to connect with that audience.

Like I mentioned before, um, uh, we've got a membership or a team All Blacks, um, area, which sits alongside our social channels. Um, we've got a goal there where we want to, to reach a million fans. Um, so a lot of our, a lot of our content was, um, looking to, um, Help boost that, that number. We're up to about 890, 000 I think it is.

Um, so we're well ahead of where we wanted to be. Um, it's looking to be, um, a million by the end of next year. 

Sean: And that's pretty much [00:30:00] it. a case of trying to own your audience and because you know, we're renting them on, on these social channels. How can we get them into, into our house and start owning that data and figuring out how we use that data?

David: Yeah, absolutely, mate. So, um, yeah, it's just so you don't have to rely on any platform that could change their rules at any given moment and leave you in the lurch, so to speak. So yeah, so look, that's grown really well, um, you know, we're starting to see some real value out of that in terms of, um, our ability to sell tickets to matches, um, to market for merchandise, uh, but also in terms of, you know, what it's worth to our, our partners, our sponsors as well, um, so enabling them to connect with our fan base.

So we're really starting to see the dividends of, of having that, um. And moving forward, what we're, what we're looking to do is probably evolve that now. So, um, [00:31:00] actually it's not all about just starting to just make someone sign up to, to an email to become a Team All Blacks fan. Actually, any way that they, if people are coming in and engaging with us on any platform, um, You know, they, they kind of almost become a team All Blacks fan anyway.

I think the days of measuring success of a membership by, uh, by getting their email address is, is, you know, is over. And, um, some people, while they'll call themselves an All Blacks fan, might never open an email from, from someone like us, you know? 

Sean: Yeah. So, I mean, that's a really good point because it, it is about managing, um, you know, you can say, Yes, we want to.

Secure, you know, secure that email and get the people into our database. And, you know, it's everyone's on their CRM strategy to do that. And to be getting close to a million fans is, you know, an amazing, amazing effort. But how do you balance that piece of, um, Hey, I want to engage this fan and I don't want to sell them or pitch them to become [00:32:00] join team All Blacks because actually I want to build up their fandom a little bit before, uh, we put them, put that offer to them.

How do you, how did you put, how did you do that balance in the Robo World Cup? Because you've got this high engagement and lots of people, you know, Concentrate, you know, following the, following the games and seeing the highlights and riding the highs and lows of each result, how do you get that balance between getting that engagement, but then also putting the message in to say, if you want more, if you want that in the Sanctum experience, you want to feel a bit closer to join Team All Blacks.

How did you get that balance right? 

David: Yeah, look, I'm not saying we did get the balance right. Because it's an ongoing discussion we have within here. Look, so what we do is we, we pick out key moments from each, and we'll say, right, of those key moments, we will put those behind a Timmel Blacks. Registration wall.

Um, prime example of that would be in the sheds after a match. Um, you know, so, and, but what we have tended to do is to look at it and say, right, [00:33:00] um, you know, we have our casual snacking fans, but we also have our passionate fans who will watch hours of content if you gave them the opportunity and the, and it was compelling enough.

And it's that kind of longer form content that we would, you know, that we would. put on our website and point people towards if they want to watch it. But we also need shorter, snappier, um, you know, content that we, that we would put on our social media channels. And then if they want to see more, um, or the longer form of that piece of content, then that's when we drive them into, into Timor Blacks.

Um, but again, we, we may change that. That strategy moving forward where, um, it's not so much around driving them to Team All Blacks, but it's about connecting with as many fans as possible. Um, and then there'll be certain bits of content, which, you know, you'll need to sign up for. Yeah. But we don't want to restrict it necessarily [00:34:00] by channel anymore.

And we're just kind of toying with that idea at the moment. 

Sean: Because it's not, you know, it's not a paywall. It's like a passion wall. Effectively, you know, it's like if you're, if you've got to this level and you really want to see this content, it's not a high price, like data is the price. Um, but it, it, but it's a matter of getting that, yeah, getting that balance right.

And, you know, I think that's snackable, shorter content is the piece to go, I hear, you know, here's how we warm you up, so to speak. Um, and then, so you just sort of put, put some behind that team, all blacks. You know, like a passion wall effectively to say, well, this is, this is, you know, you've liked our content.

You've got this far. You really shouldn't be complaining, you know, complaining about it because all you've got to do is give us this data and that's the transaction. 

David: And so the conversation we're having here at the moment is like, should we punish, if that's the right word to use, um, should we punish a fifth party?

He's a 20 year old who's really passionate about the All Blacks, spends all their time on social media channels, [00:35:00] doesn't, you know, never really uses email, um, and probably would never go to allblacks. com, or if they do, very seldomly. Um, so how does that person get that really cool content? 

Sean: Um, 

David: you know, should we be, should we be restricting them?

And, um, and those are the conversations we've been having recently and, you know, since the World Cup. And, um, we'll be looking to evolve, I think. Um. 

Sean: Well, that is also the balancing act because you're talking to partners to say, this is how many people have watched this video and this is our audience. And then effectively you're putting, you know, your team is putting in a lot of effort on a particular long form piece of video and you're showing it to 1 million people instead of 20 million people.

Obviously the numbers are going to be different, but it's a different, you know, and it's like, Is it worth us putting in the effort? Um. For producing a piece of content for this smaller audience, because just because there's a million people doesn't mean you've got a million people watching that [00:36:00] piece.

Cause you're, you know, it's percentages of that. And so that's, I'm guessing that's where those conversations are going on. The value for effort, you know, the, the value of those fans, you know, the people that are inside team All Blacks, are they worth more than like you said, the 15 year old, that's just coming on board.

David: Exactly. So, yeah, it's where that value proposition is, you know, where we start to monetise that content, so, um, you know, I've analysed a lot of sporting organisations around the world now, and one of the things I'm The value is coming out from, um, connecting our partners, our audience, not about restricting that audience.

Um, and you know, and trying to sell them something, a subscribe, you know, a subscription or something like that. The real value is coming out of, um, connecting with as many, um, you know, fans around the world as possible, segmenting those and, and, um, connecting our [00:37:00] partners with, you know, other than us. Um, and, and offers that add value to those fans in one way, shape or another.

Sean: Completely. I mean, uh, my friends in the U S because they say, uh, niche, not niche, uh, cause it never rhymes. They would say the, the riches are in the niches, um, in, in getting those smaller audiences that are highly engaged, whether it be different. In your case, geographical regions or different platforms, those kind of things that actually where is the, where the value is starting to come for, for partners, as opposed to, Hey, here's the big number.

It's like, well, if we can get a certain type of fan engaged, then we're actually getting some value there. Um, Did you want to take us through some of those, some of those stats? Like there are some big, uh, uh, stats from your rugby, rugby world cup from an impressions and, and reach point of view. Was there any particular, what was your, you know, if you're giving out gold, silver and bronze, uh, medallions to social media [00:38:00] platforms, what was, uh, what was your rankings for, um, engagements?

And again, what was it? What were the key things you were looking at? Um, you know, whether it's growth or engagement or reach or impressions, like what are some of the key stats that are the ones that you're drawn to, um, or the ones that you sort of, uh, uh, celebrate? 

David: Yeah, look, we look at all of those, to be honest.

Um, I think from, you know, out of the, from the Rugby World Cup just gone, I think, um, Instagram still tends to outperform the others. We certainly had a much bigger net follower growth. Um, over the Rugby World Cup than any of the other platforms. Um, but yeah, the engagement that we get, um, out of that as well, um, you know, is pretty phenomenal.

Um, you know, and then, and then also Twitter and Facebook. Obviously with Facebook we've got, you know, 4. 7 million followers on there, so just in terms of general reach, [00:39:00] um, and engagement again on there, it's, um, it's pretty impressive. And we're working a lot mostly now with each of those. For, to, to come up with better content for our fans.

And, uh, and then in, in comparison to, to the 2015 World Cup, um, we're probably doing a little bit less in terms of actual posts, but what the posts we are doing are. You know, a lot more engaging, um, than what we had done back then. And then we're about going back and look what we did back then, worked, what didn't, and then those and and using those as a guide, um, in terms of a content strategy for this Rugby World Cup as well.

Sean: Yeah, I mean from the, from the, the stats that, you know, you shared, uh, with me, Like the main thing that, uh, uh, came, jumped out at me was, uh, that it was all around engagement. Like you had strong [00:40:00] engagement and again, all of this, that's sort of said what a lot of people are saying, Instagram being a really good engagement platform and is where like most of the activity that is happening in the social space.

Um, but also the fact that you've done such a good job over the last, you know, seven, eight years that you are getting, uh, from a point of view, you didn't get a big jump in numbers. Because you've done a good job of growing that, uh, those audiences on those platforms. Over time, you didn't see the spike that you might've seen at other tournaments of new people coming on and finding you.

So that, you know, were you expecting, I guess that as a, as an overall thing going into the tournament? 

David: Yeah, well, I think it's just the maturity of those plat You know, so, um, you know, we, we're not expecting to see massive, massive growth out of Facebook like we did, you know, in either of the last two world cups purely because those people who are fans of the All Blacks.

Who are really, [00:41:00] um, you know, engaged on, on social media, they're probably already our fan. 

Sean: You know? 

David: Um, so it's just, it's just a maturity thing and I think that's why we've seen such good growth on Instagram over the last few, you know, three or four years is because it's a new platform than the other two, uh, Twitter and Facebook, the main ones that we use.

Sean: Yeah. And the growth, I guess, you know what, it's tracking the same way as the platforms are. Yeah. Right. We're not seeing, you know, Facebook grow and we're not seeing Twitter grow in the same way. And we're still seeing that growth in Instagram as it chases down Facebook. So, David, wrapping, uh, wrapping up this pod, I want to get to the, uh, SportsGeek Closing 5.

I'm here with David. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended? 

David: Look, I'm racking my brain on that. I would have to say that was a one day cricket match between the Black Caps and Sri Lanka at McLean Park [00:42:00] in Nakey. I was probably about eight years old. So, um, good baking hot day and, and, uh, yeah.

What 

Sean: were some of the names that would have been playing for New Zealand back then? The Crow Brothers potentially? 

David: Lance Kearns. 

Sean: Lance Kearns, yep. 

David: Uh, Richard Hadley, um, Ewan Chatfield, Martin Sneddon. Um, yeah. Once then who would then 

Sean: go on to, to run the rugby World Cup. 

David: Exactly. 

Sean: Exactly. Like talk about a good sport.

It's a story . Um, and, you know, connecting multiple sports. Indeed. Um, what's, you, you would've been to a few, obviously a few rugby matches over your time and a few sports events. Do you have a favorite food memory or a go-to food at a sports? 

David: I'm going to be really boring on that and I'd say a good hot, a good hot dog and tomato sauce.

Sean: No, that's fine. Like sometimes it's sort of like a, you just revert and you go, Oh, now I know I'm in a sports event because I have a hot dog in my hand. So what's, what's the, what's the first [00:43:00] app you open in the morning? 

David: Much to my wife's dismay, the last app that I will open up, have open in the evening and the first one I open up in the morning is the BBC.

Sean: Okay. Okay. 

David: Bye. I'm an absolute news tragic. 

Sean: Yep. Okay. And then I guess it's WhatsApp to see what things are coming through from your teams around the world? 

David: Uh, yep. Yep. WhatsApp to a degree. Um, and then also Instagram in terms of a social media platform. 

Sean: Yep. Um, and is there someone that you suggest the podcast listeners should follow that either you read or listen to, or a colleague you think is doing a great job?

David: I think outside of, of, uh, of your one, um, I listen, um, routinely to the social media talk show and social media marketing. Okay. So it's Michael Stelzner. Yes. So, you know, they're really good at just keeping, keeping me up to [00:44:00] date from a social media perspective, um, each week. 

Sean: And yeah, and have a real strong, I guess, social media marketing focus.

So how people are using it for, for business results or growth and those kinds of things. Um, I've been to a couple of their conferences and no mic. So yeah, so it's a, it's a good listen. Um, what social media platform, um, is your MVP, whether it's, uh, you probably answer it from a, uh, All Blacks perspective and then maybe a personal perspective.

What's the best one for yourself? 

David: Um, I would have to say Instagram. Both counts there. Yep. Um, I mean, Instagram is one, you know, that really engaged fans are residing. And then, um, and then just in terms of, again, a nice, snackable kind of content. And then, um, also with the stories now as well, you know, you can get a feel for what's going on in someone's life or their day.

Um, and you can't beat [00:45:00] Instagram as far as I'm concerned. 

Sean: And it definitely is that it is the platform for the, for the, around that motto of, you know, fan on the shoulder, like that fits for that type of content, doesn't it? 

David: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Sean: So David, how in, how will people, uh, find and connect with you?

What are the best platforms to do so? And for them to say, Hey David, uh, I listened to the podcast, really enjoyed it. Uh, what platforms should they connect with you on? 

David: Uh, two there. One would be Instagram, um, which would be, uh, instagram. com forward slash DBG in Z and same on Twitter. 

Sean: DBGNZ is your Twitter handle?

David: Correct, or NZ for 

Sean: people in the States. And, um, and also they can connect with you on LinkedIn, I'm assuming. 

David: Indeed. Yep. There's not too many Barton gingers on LinkedIn, so you should be able to find me pretty easily. 

Sean: Uh, no problems. Well, David, thank you very [00:46:00] much, uh, for coming on the podcast, uh, and going through our technical mishaps.

Hopefully this is recorded and this hasn't been a 45 minute conversation wasted. Um, it hasn't been, actually it wouldn't have been wasted because we've had it. And if no one else listens to this, uh, we'll also, we'll be at least a benefit. Benefit of it. Uh, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

David: You're welcome. Great. To chat 

DJ Joel: new workshops on audience content distribution, valuation and pitch following Sports Geeks digital to Dollars process, go to digital to dollars.com.

Sean: Thanks again to David. Button Ginger from New Zealand Rugby. Um. You can send him a tweet, DBG tweets or give him a message. Send him a message on Instagram, DBG NZ on Instagram, or as he said, you can find him on LinkedIn. David Barton Ginger. There isn't too many David Barton Ginger's on [00:47:00] LinkedIn, but please if you do connect with David and you're doing so because you've listened to this podcast, uh, please let him know that you listened and give him some feedback.

I really do appreciate. wholeheartedly when guests find out that people are listening to the podcast. It is the best form of feedback, um, even better than iTunes reviews or Apple podcast reviews. I love Apple podcast reviews and people sending them in, but I actually really do love hearing the feedback from guests.

And it's quite, it's quite strange, strange in other words, it's, uh, quite, um, fulfilling, uh, to touch base with them in about six weeks, at the six week mark after their episode and to hear the different people that have reached out to them around the world. So if you enjoyed that chat with David and you want to know more about what the All Blacks are doing in digital and social law, you just want to dive in a bit of the internet history of, uh, building websites back in 2004, please reach out to DBG, um, as he is known on [00:48:00] the internet.

Um, before I wrap up, uh, Digital2Dollars, are you looking to bring more money and more revenue in for your sport or brand in 2020? That's what Digital2Dollars is built for. It helps you better define your digital strategy, understand your audiences, understand your content and get a common language From your digital team, to your data team, to your commercial team, to your partners.

I'm happy to talk through how the process can be applied to your business. We are seeing it being manipulated and transformed in different ways, whether you be a league, a team, a stadium, or even just a personality. So you can check that out at digitaldollars. com or you can just Email me, Sean at sportsgeekhq.

com, and we can set up a time to chat about how we can help you. Um, also in 2020 also means there are new seasons that come on board. New seasons mean there are new players coming on board, which means they come with new issues. And as we sort of discussed there [00:49:00] with, uh, DBG, uh, athletes are becoming their own digital media platforms.

And one of the things that always, Makes me shake my head a little bit is, uh, the fact that the, the training of athletes in the digital space is relatively left to the, to the athletes. Um, so if you need some, if you want to at least ensure your players have a, have a baseline knowledge of what they should and shouldn't do.

Um, and also provide them with a, with a forum to ask all of those silly questions that they sometimes might not ask a media or a comms person in a, in a club because they don't look like, they don't look silly. Um, yeah, we're happy to provide. Social media and digital athlete training, um, whether that's in a group form, um, or one on one, if you want to bring up some of your digital rock stars up to speed and elevate them, um, above the crowd.

So yeah, if you're interested in that, you can go to sportsgeekhq. com slash social media athlete training, but as always, you can send me an email. Um, that wraps up this episode. [00:50:00] Don't forget, keep sending in questions for the Q and A episodes. Um, please keep sending them in. Over the break, if you're listening to this after Christmas or in the new year, please keep sending them in.

We plan on doing more questions. Those questions can be on sponsorship, content, marketing, digital, broadcast, whatever you like. I'll do my best to answer them. Uh, you can send them in. By social media or Sean at SportsGeekHQ. com. Until next episode, don't forget, you can sign up and become a patron of Sports Geek and our content in the podcasting and newsletter space by going to SportsGeekHQ.

com slash Patreon. Until next episode, my name is Sean Callanan, and you've been listening to Sports Geek.

DJ Joel: Join Sports Geek Nation access to exclusive Slack and Facebook groups with regular Q& A sessions with Sean Callanan. Go to sportsgeeknation. com to join. Need [00:51:00] help with your digital rate card? Not sure how to price your assets? Is there a disconnect between digital and commercial? That is where Sean works best in digital divorce counselor mode.

Book a time for a call with Sean to discuss the Sports Geek process. Go to sportsgeekhq. com slash phone call. Go to sportsgeekhq. com for more sports digital marketing resources.