Driving commercial outcomes in sport – Ned Negus, A-Leagues

Sean Callanan (00:01)
Very happy to welcome Ned Negus. He's the Chief Commercial Officer at the A-Leagues based here in Australia. Ned, welcome to the podcast.

Ned Negus (00:10)
Thanks Sean, pleasure to be here.

Sean Callanan (00:13)
I always want to get started in understanding people's sports business origin story. How about yourself? How did you get your start in the world of sports?

Ned Negus (00:24)
It started with a pretty ill-informed, romantic view as a teenager in business studies that I wanted to get out there into the sports world and make a career of it. That's how it started. I relentlessly pursued that pretty early in terms of taking opportunities and experiences. I did work experience at SBS with Les Murray and those guys and a variety of things. It's really been about being focused and not being distracted by opportunities that would send me in other directions and not being brought down by the many barriers and difficulties you have in the sports world which are plentiful.

Sean Callanan (01:15)
From a focus point of view, in the early days, you did some work in TV, some reporting stuff for Fox Sports and some work with SBS. So you're in that broadcast sports space. How did you find your way into the marketing and the commercial side of the business?

Ned Negus (01:35)
That's a good question. When I was there as a sports reporter, I realized very quickly that even though it was exciting and gave me that daily kick of enjoying sport, I preferred a longer game when it came to projects. I preferred a more in-depth mandate to work through what change could look like in the sports world. As a reporter, certainly at that time as a young kid going through uni, it was pretty wafer thin in terms of the depths you could go. It was rock up, start your day, go and interview some players and coaches, put a story together, go home. I realized that was probably not going to fly for me. I was getting bored pretty quickly and wanted to get a bit deeper into what could actually result in getting under the hood and make differences and changes. The other thing, to put it bluntly, I come from a journalistic family and I didn't really want to do the predictable. So I became the black sheep pretty quickly, albeit one that my dad and my mum were very proud of, by going into business as opposed to journalism or politics.

Sean Callanan (03:02)
You found your space in that marketing and commercial space, first in agency land and then a bit of work at clubs. What were some of your important steps in your career to develop the skills that you have today?

Ned Negus (03:20)
Going back to how I managed to move into the trajectory I did, it was really about taking opportunities that aren't the ones that everyone sitting next to you is looking at. In this specific case, my opportunity to get into the commercial side came through a mix of connection and complete coincidence. I met a gentleman called Tom Liston on a holiday in Europe. He was a mutual family connection. Tom was one of the founding leaders of Team Marketing who are the commercial creators behind the Champions League and UEFA. Until the last cycle when they gave Relevant Sports the mandates for North America, they were the only commercial agency that UEFA has utilized for club competitions.

I met Tom at a party and he said, “What do you do? What are you interested in?” And then a mutual friend said, “He wants your job.” Everyone laughed. Then he said, “Well, okay, come for an interview.” I literally got on a plane from Naples to Zurich. It was 15 degrees and raining. I was in shorts. I spent a whole day unprepared doing interviews at one of the most respected sports marketing agencies on the planet. Tom picked me up afterwards and dropped me to the train station. Six months later I was there on a six-month contract. At 21, I took that opportunity and backed myself to turn a six-month quasi-internship into a job and then a career. Team Marketing has always been part of who I am as a professional, even if it's now only a small component of what I've done in my career.

Sean Callanan (06:00)
You've had a few stops like that. You haven't had that traditional career of a long job and slowly working up the ladder. You've done the bouncing between different jobs to take on a new role or a bigger role. Is that something you're doing to challenge yourself with those career changes?

Ned Negus (06:28)
Definitely. Anyone that works with me knows I move quickly and I'm pretty intense. I'm not one to sit idle. There's elements of personality. But I'd also say that even though I have moved through quite a few different roles, in reality, they have been roles that all link together in some shape or form, primarily the sport of football and commercialization of it.

For example, Patrick Murphy, who was the founder of Catalyst that then became DDMC Fortis, which became Football Marketing Asia – that was one job really in the end, even though it was multiple companies. He was from Team. So Oli Dus, Simon Calder, people like that who were my management colleagues there were always colleagues from Team.

Not sitting idle ensures that you keep challenging yourself and keep people on their toes. But it's not about constantly getting distracted by every second opportunity. It's about knowing when you're ready to change in terms of the value you're providing. It's funny that you look at it that way because I actually see it as being a pretty consistent clear path. But you're right, there have been quite a few changes within that, but it's been with a very clear focus on football, commercial, and where possible, multi-market opportunity.

Sean Callanan (08:16)
Which dovetails nicely into your role at the A-League. We reconnected at Sport Next and you were still relatively new in the role at the A-League as Director of Commercial and International Strategy. What was that initial remit of that role coming to the A-League?

Ned Negus (08:41)
When I initially came in, Danny Townsend was the CEO at the time and the AAPL strategy had a lot of ambitious and interesting projects that were appealing. One of them was to look at how the A-League could grow internationally. When we say grow internationally, we mean in particular revenues but also its brand and its engagement. But what it actually meant, which was really interesting about the role, was looking at the reverse – how to bring international football via tours, partnerships, content, whatever it might be to the A-Leagues in a way to actually grow and turbocharge the domestic position we were in.

So the initial remit was around international media rights, international partnerships with leagues and clubs, as well as international tours, finding opportunities for our clubs to play against international clubs and building out the All-Stars opportunity for us. It suited my world very well in terms of network and skillset. It was probably never going to be where it stopped if I stayed around, and Danny knew that and I knew that, but it was a good way to start. I definitely prefer to go into roles that are not roles that eight or nine other people are trying to do or could do. I prefer to go into roles that other people can't do or aren't looking to do – it's a better position to build from.

Sean Callanan (11:07)
So that project around the All Stars piece, how does that start up and develop as a concept?

Ned Negus (11:12)
The A-League definitely still has a growth opportunity overseas. We wanted to take a slightly more nuanced lens and have two lenses to it. We can talk about what that means around the international world for the A-League and what is real and not real. Given my experience overseas, I was very quickly able to identify to the management team and the board what is just a pipe dream and what could actually be things that have impact quickly.

The All-Stars did and does do a couple of things for us as a league. Some of them are directly financial. The tour's economy can be quite lucrative. There are lots of people out there doing tours very well, our partners, TG and others we've partnered with. There's a pure economic piece – there is money to be made and we need money to reinvest in our ecosystem. There's also an angle around creating another high-profile centralized event for commercials. A-League sponsors need more moments in the spotlight because as a league sponsor, you've got this interesting dynamic of frequency and consistency, maybe a lot of digital engagement through the year, but you don't have that many big moments that they can attach onto.

Initially, there was also a simple customer acquisition consideration. The initial strategy that the APL post-unbundling pursued was around how to bring more football fans and not elite fans into the ecosystem. This was a tactic to do that, not a strategy.

What it's become now is an interesting piece about what role the All-Stars, which is fundamentally a commercial event, plays in terms of our commercial football priorities. What does it do in terms of putting our players on the global stage? How does that then impact transfer value, which is a critical revenue stream for our clubs? How does it give those players, especially our female All-Stars which we launched for the first time, a sense of playing on a massive stage in an environment that is more high-profile, intense in terms of media commitments, activities, government engagement? All these things that as professionals they actually want as players is something that All-Stars can do. It's about them feeling like there's a stage to perform on, both locally and for the world to see them.

Sean Callanan (14:52)
A lot of sports are looking to create more tentpole moments and this is effectively what you've been able to manufacture. You have season launches, big Derby games, and grand finals, but being able to build that gives you another asset. For the listeners who might not be in Australia and New Zealand and might not know the A-Leagues, how do you explain to people internationally where the A-League sits and how unique it is in the Australian market?

Ned Negus (15:30)
That's a big question. To people internationally, I think where it sits is as something that is underappreciated in terms of its scale, impact, and quality if you sit outside of Australia. For a long time, there was a perception that the league wasn't as high quality as it is. The big thing we're now noticing is that the quality of player being developed in the league is far higher than it was before. We are now in a global football ecosystem and different leagues do have their purpose within that system, as opposed to within the domestic market.

Fundamentally, we are a development league, which means two things. It means we really prioritize the development of exciting young talent and the way in which we use them to connect with local community and local kids. My son is A-League obsessed. He is just absolutely infatuated with the young players because they're exciting and relatable. If you're a kid in Australia playing football, even if the reality is there's no chance you're going to make it, it still gives you that connectivity.

When the A-League first came in, it was all about “football, but not as you know it.” It was all about “hey, we can be massive here too” with marquee players. There was a reason for that. But right now, we're 20 years old, and we've got kids growing up with the A-League who had parents who have consumed the A-League for a long time. We've got our first generation of second-generation fans now. We don't need to pretend that we are not a pathway – we are a pathway. But the balance is keeping those kids for long enough that they can become personalities that people know and then also having the right level of experienced foreigner that actually contributes to that development.

People misunderstand being a youth-focused league as just caring about kids. That doesn't work. You've got to have the kids and the experience and bring them together, and then you get a really good product but you also get transfer fees.

When I see people come to a Sydney Derby or a Melbourne Derby or a grand final, I genuinely think people from overseas do not realize just how big it is here. They don't realize that you can go to a Super Rugby match and hear echoes around the stadium and you go to Sydney Derby and you can't hear yourself think. That's not something that is well-known overseas.

Sean Callanan (19:18)
Definitely. It's a very crowded sports market. I do discuss in this podcast the battle for the word “football” between football as in the world game and football as in Aussie rules and football as in NRL in Australia. Everyone seems to fight for that. But the ability for younger fans to follow younger players, and then also following those stories as they transfer out because those stories are far more accessible than they were when the A-League started. You can be still following that player whether they head over to other leagues.

Ned Negus (20:15)
Totally right. The point about consumability is really interesting. If a player transferred out of the A-League in 2006, the likelihood would be that the destination they were going to was very hard to consume. Whereas now that's not the case. You can, whether bite-size or full broadcast, definitely follow that story.

Even though we have moved away from the “Keep Up” strategy, if you go on our social channels and on our aleagues.com.au website, we still talk to that. Being proud of what we are, being really clear on what we are. We talk a lot about being the sport of modern Australia in demographic and psychographic. At a football level, what that means is a sport that is connected with the world, a sport that is intrinsically youthful, a league that features young players and players that are good ambassadors, diverse ambassadors, progressive ambassadors. That's the place we play and we play it very authentically.

The big shift I've seen is that football used to be referred to as a sleeping giant all the time. It's not sleeping at all now. One of the reasons for that would be that the traits that football has always had are traits now that are considered to be the Australia a lot of people want. We have a lot of success with brands around that narrative. This is not to say that there isn't a place for nostalgia in old Australia. That's fine. That's a territory people will play in. But no longer is it an awkward topic to talk about multiculturalism, to talk about pride, to talk about these things, to talk about that football might not be the roughest sport or a classic blokey sport. It's a sport that has many different facets to it. Sometimes that includes classic typical masculinity, sometimes it doesn't. These are all things that now people speak about openly and a lot of people want to associate with. That is a big shift because it was slightly awkward 20 years ago, maybe even still 10, 15 years ago. It's not now, which gives us our space to play and to be proud of.

Sean Callanan (23:16)
You outlined some reasons why partners are coming on board with the A-Leagues and brands that are talking to you. What are some of the things that they are looking for, both thematically and audience-wise, but also metrics-wise that partners are saying they want to get involved with the A-Leagues?

Ned Negus (23:36)
We talk to our clients about who they're trying to reach, what narrative they're trying to associate with or tell, and what things they're going to do and measure to determine their ROI. We'd almost start with the thematics. The audience is critical and differentiated, but the narratives are probably more so. It is that modern Australia piece. Our brands tend to be brands that want to talk about being international, progressive, and a little bit different, but without being completely focused only internationally. It's that balance between how do you be international without being almost non-Australian. That's where we really play.

Demographically, we massively over-perform and even dominate in young families and young people, particularly in that 16 to 30 bracket. It's a powerful place. It's not to say that people in those age groups don't also consume other codes, of course they do, but proportionately we win in that space. Recent YouGov data showed we came in second in terms of digital consumption within the under 35 demographic, not just proportionately, but in volume terms to the AFL. There are more 18 to 35 year olds claiming to consume the A-League digitally than the NRL. That's pretty powerful for us and we are leaning into it.

There's that pure demographic play and then there's the whole play around the colliding of passion and a slight anti-establishment element, but without being too full-on in that space. On one hand, you've got the active fans, the passion that comes with football, and then you've got the young families playing the sport, having a nice wholesome night out or afternoon out. I go to Sydney FC every weekend and obviously travel around the country to games. I think we've got past the idea that you can't have active fans and family. I never bought that. Certainly right now you can see that the two things can go together.

So when we go back to sponsors, it's about how do you talk to young people and how do you talk to their parents at the same time, in the same place, often with the same or similar messages, but maybe distributed in different ways. That's what we do.

Sean Callanan (27:25)
One of the ways to bring the fans together in one place is the decision to have the grand final in one place. You've got a really passionate, but very loud fan base. How did the plans for Unite Round come together and take that feedback on and build out another tentpole moment that can work for both parties?

Ned Negus (28:08)
The original decision was based on a very sound and real financial opportunity. There was probably a misjudgment in terms of the negative impact and reaction it would have. When you're doing a lot of different things and you're chasing financially led projects, there will be mistakes made and that was a mistake. Everyone saw, including the people that made the decision, that it had to be changed.

At the same time, we had a government who had backed our sport directly in that event, backed our league, and have fantastic infrastructure that we want to use. We do want to bring A-League fans together. So it was about how do you do it. Unite Round is a concept that isn't unique – other codes have done it. There's probably still a question mark over whether A-League has enough gravitas amongst the neutral to make a concept like that really work.

Year one was what we call a pass plus. All the ingredients were there in terms of what it looked like – active fans, four or five groups in one venue, no incidents, great atmosphere, families right next to them, fantastic football. New South Wales delivered exceptional football pitches for that event because of the effort they put in. We saw amazing games and amazing goals. That's an issue we have as a sport – football needs a flat, well looked after surface. It needs governments that are willing to give the directive to actually ensure that.

There was a lot of grassroots activity around it. The difference between the men's hubs and the women's hubs was notable, which is important because they're not the same product. They're compatible products, but they're different.

It was all good, but now it needs to be just better and bigger. We won over the fans by flipping it. We delivered something for the government that worked. It was a clear win-win. The question now is, can we make it big enough? We put the Sydney Derby at the centerpiece of it. The idea is that we're moving away over time from having third Derbies in our league because we want to move to a straight home and away format when we can. Does Unite Round provide an opportunity to put the biggest games on a third time in one location?

The challenge will be the tribalism of football fans and the intensity of them. It's more just, let's see, do other people want to see that? A fan from outside of Sydney who doesn't usually get to see a Sydney Derby, which is now indisputably one of the iconic moments in the Australian sporting calendar, gets a chance to see their team and that. It will be interesting to see if they want that and to what extent. To what extent does an A-League fan like the idea of going and watching their team and then watching their enemies? We believe in it. We think it will be great. We're very confident we'll have a great outcome this year, but it's definitely still a learning for us. If we don't listen to the fans, it definitely doesn't work.

Sean Callanan (33:01)
From your point of view with a commercial hat on, a lot of the times you make the deal, legal contracts get drawn up, and lists of deliverables get done. But then whether it's as big as flipping the whole concept or making a few changes to that deal to ensure success, how do you get that flexibility both with your team and your partner to say, “We tried this, it didn't work” or “This can be tweaked, but we're actually going to go away from what that says in the legal contract and what we agreed six, 12, 18 months ago”? How do you manage that relationship with your partners to be able to say, “We've done this, it did well, we want to do something better, but you're moving away from the legalese”?

Ned Negus (33:46)
As a concept, there are a few different ways. There are technical ways, and an old colleague of mine used to talk about constructive ambiguity in contracts, which meant having contracts that you could work with. But I wouldn't advocate for that.

I'd say the real way you do it is by being pretty direct about what you're selling and why from the beginning. If people are clear what they're buying and why, and people believe you – the authenticity is there – then when there are genuine reasons to change, they should see that as being a good thing.

I'm certainly at times as a commercial leader pretty direct in terms of what we are or aren't. I do believe that in partnerships, sponsors and government don't know us as well as we do. That's the truth. Even though the nuances of what you're delivering them relate to what their business needs, the core of it is that they want to borrow value from you or borrow an audience from you to build their business and borrow a message. There's nothing wrong with telling a client the way things can work better.

I tell my sales team, there's a big difference between saying, “Okay, what do you want? What's the brief? Tell me how I can help your business,” and then going away and trying to answer that brief perfectly, versus saying, “This is us. This is what we think you are. Now let's work out where the synergies are.” A lot of people get that wrong in that they're just constantly trying to respond to brief, constantly trying to meet exactly what the client wants. But that's not a partnership really. And it doesn't allow you then to pivot later if you have good reason to do so. Being conviction and listening, but also speaking, is the way that you get it done.

Sean Callanan (36:38)
But as you said, no one knows your business as well as yourself and it's the same for the client. Being able to have that back-and-forth to actually understand their business, because you will have clients who will say they want this, but not realizing that it doesn't actually serve their purpose because you haven't really dove into their business. So I think it is building that relationship to know where the peaks and troughs are for both businesses.

Ned Negus (37:03)
Definitely. Using a recent example, our new naming rights partner, SharkNinja – without revealing things that shouldn't be revealed, I'm sure Aby and Ben from SharkNinja wouldn't mind me saying this – the way in which they approached the negotiation or partnership development process was just incredibly uplifting and enjoyable. One of the key reasons was they were very clear that we knew us better than they did, but also that by us doing what we thought was going to grow our sport and bringing them on that ride, it would benefit them.

There was a classic quote from Aby. He said something along the lines of, “Tell me what works, tell me what you guys need to grow and how we can help, and leave me to work out how I benefit from that.” I love that because there's so much time spent on brands and rights holders trying to be each other, but we're not. I experienced very similar attitudes in China when I sold there.

I remember my first sales job in China, I walked in with a classic “here's the research I've done on your company, this is what I think.” They looked at me and through my translator said something. The response was, “Don't ever come to me in a first meeting with your opinion of our business.” I think that is good. It's actually far more refreshing than this idea that we have to, from day one, know everything about our client. It's a journey.

I'm not saying you should advocate for just throwing generic proposals at people and saying, “Do you like it?” But there is a far more nuanced way to customize things and a far more nuanced way to understand their role versus yours. I really love that – it's our job to work out how to benefit from your success, it's your job to make sure you succeed. I like that.

Sean Callanan (39:46)
One of the things I have been asking people – and we've really been talking about relationships and building them and getting that pitch right – there's a lot of tools in the partnership, commercial sponsorship space and it has been a scene that has grown over time. Are there particular tools in your kit bag that help you succeed, whether they be in the sales phase or delivery phase or reporting phase?

Ned Negus (40:13)
I'm a big believer in focus and intensity. The partnership sales process is a very hard one. The biggest thing I do myself, but also say to my teams, is give yourself the opportunity to focus and intensely run at things once they're real. Don't treat every pitch the same, because not every pitch is the same. Actually give it the amount of time it requires. I think a lot of people have too much going on and never actually give themselves a chance to nail a pitch.

So that's a big thing for me – just focus, and then once you feel or know something, there are signals early on that when you have experience, you can tell. I always say, does it make sense? It's the sponsorship version of the pub test from the beginning. Does this actually make sense? And are you talking to someone that can make the decision? If the answer is yes to both of those things, back yourself and focus. It may not work because it never always works, but that'd be my big thing – that sniff test. Are you talking to the right person? Does this actually fit? And the intensity that goes with that.

The other area that I'm huge on is white space. Trying in what can be a quite homogenous area, how do you stick to a structure in a sponsorship pyramid? I believe you should. I'm not a gold, silver, bronze guy, but there's a reason why you have a hierarchy. The reason is less to do with the hierarchy itself and more to do with the fact that fans are only half switched on all the time. At the end of the day, you need a way to structure your program so fans get more of the brands that are paying more, in very simple terms.

But you've got to have white space. You've got to have a situation where a brand becomes famous for something within your space. And that white space needs to make sense. It can make sense from a narrative perspective, it can make sense from an objective perspective, whatever it is. I'm a big believer that a good partner family has a clear pyramid, but also within that, they all play a role that, if activated well, a fan should over time understand.

Sean Callanan (43:18)
What do you look for in someone to work in your team from a commercial, sales, and partnerships point of view?

Ned Negus (43:36)
Firstly, maybe it's a product of the way I am as a person, but also the experience I've had working in different markets – I like diversity in a team. And I don't mean just in terms of demographics or gender or anything like that. I mean genuine diversity. I think if you have too many people that could replace each other, that's probably good in terms of being able to have people leave and not be an issue. But ultimately, it's not very efficient.

When it comes to the traits in partnership sales or probably any enterprise sales that really matter, I believe you do need passion because it's hard. What we do is difficult. It's fun because you're in sport, but it's hard. It's not an easy sell. So you need passion and grit, and the two things usually go together.

In my world, if you're a second-tier sport, which we are at the moment in Australia, you need passion for football or at least passion for what football represents in terms of those narratives. You need to walk into a room and want to sell what we have more than what the competitor has, genuinely. There are different reasons that might drive that passion, but I look for that. I don't want someone who walks in and is thinking, “Actually, this client, I'd probably rather be selling them golf.” That's not what I want.

Second thing would be the ability to work in a team because sponsorship sales, partnership sales is not a lone wolf sales job at all. It's not a lone wolf partnership management job either. You need other people, need to rely on other people. So there has to be that ability to get into a bunker. I run a bunker-like sales approach. Get everyone in, in some periods daily or twice a day, and ask where are we? And then off they go.

The third one is I do look for intelligence, and that could be emotional intelligence, it could be more academic intelligence. You need to be able to think quick, think smart, think creatively because it's not an obvious product we're selling. It's a product that requires lots of thought about how you match things together and match that to the brand.

I recently hired a guy out of our finance team, 21, 22, and he had all those things. He had no experience, but he had all those things. The lack of experience means that he'll take his time to get up. But that was probably a good example where I just went, he loves football, he got the finance job through LinkedIn stalking of our CFO, he runs his own sort of kid applications business, he's a team player, he's learning, and he's smart. He worked in equity sales for a while. So yeah, grit and passion, teamwork, intelligence – emotionally or academically or both ideally.

Sean Callanan (47:21)
Terrific. Well, Ned, I want to get to the Sportsgeek Closing Five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?

Ned Negus (47:31)
The first big sports event I attended would have been Australia versus Argentina. I think it was '93, a qualifier for the '94 World Cup. I drove down from Bellingham with my dad to Sydney to watch that. Maradona played, so did the illustrious Paul Wade, Robbie Slater, Aurelio Vidmar, those guys. It was, and probably Graham Arnold actually too. That was my first sports event.

Sean Callanan (47:59)
Terrific. You would have been to a lot of sports events in your days. Do you have a favorite food memory or a go-to food when you're at a sports event?

Ned Negus (48:08)
It's interesting because when you work on the commercial side, you eat a lot of hospitality food. So you do actually have the luxury of good stuff. I would say, therefore, let me answer this question on two levels – hospitality food and bleacher food. Hospitality food in Turin at Juventus – sensational. I'm not a Juventus fan, by the way, but man, they make good food in Turin and it comes through in the hospitality.

On the bleachers would be in Florence. I'm a Fiorentina fan, dear to my heart. You get these sausage sort of sandwiches that are like Italian pork and veal sausages cut in half on a bun. So it's like a sausage roll, but gourmet.

Sean Callanan (48:55)
Mouthwatering stuff. What's the first app you open in the morning?

Ned Negus (49:01)
I spent too long in Asia, so WhatsApp for sure.

Sean Callanan (49:05)
Is there someone that you follow that the podcast listeners should follow and why?

Ned Negus (49:18)
Good question. Look, I have to admit, I try to avoid social media too much during the workday when I can, but probably Roger Mitchell is a good guy to follow. I think he's unpredictable. I like that. You never really know what he's going to say, but also very interesting and pretty well connected into the sports world. So yeah, Roger Mitchell would be one to follow in my opinion.

Sean Callanan (49:50)
Terrific. And lastly, you can answer this both personally and then potentially put your A-League's hat on. But what social media platform is your MVP?

Ned Negus (50:01)
I would say, going back to what I said before, I probably consume social media more personally than professionally, but I am a fan. I would say Instagram, maybe it's my demographic. Maybe it's the balance of it having some content, primarily visual content. It works well in our A-League world, which then by default makes it my world. So Insta would be it for me.

Sean Callanan (50:29)
Thank you very much for coming on the pod. If people have listened to this podcast and want to reach out to say thank you, what is the best way for them to connect with you?

Ned Negus (50:42)
I guess LinkedIn. Checking in by you, and you can vet those requests and pass them my email. That's also fine.

Sean Callanan (50:55)
That's fine. I'll put the links to your LinkedIn. It is a playground for the commercial folk. Please, as I say every time, if you do reach out, let Ned know that you listened to the podcast so he can filter some of those invites. We all get some of those spam invites, which we don't want. Ned, thanks for coming on the podcast. Really appreciate it.

Ned Negus (51:19)
Thanks, Sean. Have a good one.