BCorp Certification and Partnership Evolution – Orry Lack, North Melbourne FC

This transcript has been transcribed by Riverside.fm, no edits (please excuse any errors)

seancallanan (00:01.404)
Very happy to welcome Orry Lack. He's the Chief Commercial Officer for the North Melbourne Footy Club here in Melbourne. Orry, welcome to the podcast.

Orry Lack (00:09.365)
Sean, thanks for having me on.

seancallanan (00:10.972)
Not a problem at all. I always get started trying to figure out people's sports business origin story, how they got their break, how they got into the world of sport. What about yourself? How did you find your way into the world of sport?

Orry Lack (00:23.118)
Yeah, well, 10 years of AFL now, but it probably started in a couple of roles beforehand. I was working in a tech startup called Shout for Good, which was a micro donations platform run by Janie Martino. She's a star in that space. And lucky enough to have been introduced to the then CEO, Peter Jackson of the Melbourne Footy Club here in the AFL.

And a coffee kind of led to an interview six months down the track and started with the D's, yeah, 10 seasons ago, which makes me feel pretty old.

seancallanan (01:00.018)
Yeah, and so what was the, again, there's always people who either go to uni and say, hey, I to get into sport and not quite know their entry point. And then I have spoken to a lot of people that have been in other roles. So what were some of those roles, you know, both at Sherford Good, but also prior to that, that sort of set you up for that, to have enough skill set to say, hey, yep, want to have, you know, Melbourne, sort you out for an interview.

Orry Lack (01:22.158)
Yeah, so if I go back to my studies and my origin story, I wanted to be Eddie McGuire. I thought sports broadcasting and the journalism, knew I was never probably gonna be good enough to play at the elite level. So I studied journalism, got a cadetship at the Ballarat Courier in regional Victoria here, got two weeks into it and realized I didn't wanna be a journo. And I was pretty crazy to think, to make such a big commitment to move to Ballarat.

seancallanan (01:28.455)
Mm-hmm.

seancallanan (01:44.029)
Yep.

Orry Lack (01:50.72)
and then realised two weeks in that that's not me and I'm definitely not a quitter. So for me to be able to have that gut instinct was really tough. probably what it allowed me to do is get a really refined skill set of written and communication skills and verbal communication skills and selling a story to a journal or being on the other end of what a good pitch and a bad pitch looks like kind of naturally lends itself to an opportunity to sell. And where I probably refine my skill set from the Shout for Good Days where you are

trying to recruit commercial and charity partners on the platform was I started working with an experiential agency called Active Edge based up in the Central Coast in New South Wales, a cool list of clients including Bupa. And what I was able to do was actually work on behalf of Bupa with their Hawthorne Football Club, major partnership at the time in terms of activations and experiences and probably seeing on the other side of the fence understanding what the brand was looking for and being able to

maybe bring that to the Melbourne Footy Club of what a business is looking for in terms of its rights holder relationship. And then being able to cultivate that on the rights holder side, I probably started in the business world first and then moved to sport. And that meant that maybe there was a level of bilingualness to be able to sell a modern way of sponsorship.

seancallanan (03:11.163)
Yeah, I mean, that's really important point like that whole part of being on the agency side or knowing what the brands are seeking and not just being, you know, on the sports side all the time or just starting on the sports side to sort of understand, you know, whether it's Bupa or other partners, hey, what are they trying to get from a sports partnership? So your first role at Melbourne was on that partnership side, sort of in that same sort of space, going to, you know, the rights holder side, as you said, and going to market.

Orry Lack (03:40.588)
Yeah, so it was a dual role. When I first got there, footy club, it was to look after a couple of major commercial partners at the time, as well as new business. And it was a really interesting mix of partners. It was an automotive group that no longer exists called AHG, which was a collection of car dealerships. And probably the difficult thing there when you're trying to explain a brand to a fan is you don't buy an AHG. So being able to actually talk to that.

seancallanan (04:06.855)
Mm-hmm.

Orry Lack (04:08.972)
was really interesting, as well as China's Southern Airlines, which was a new entry into market. So very diverse sort of brand portfolio across a couple other bits and pieces. But that servicing side, as well as selling, I always think there's a strength to be able to actually go from servicing to selling, if you can cover that pathway, because you then understand the inventory and what it can unlock. And sometimes inventory across a commercial partnership.

might mean one thing to one brand with a set of objectives, but could mean a completely different thing depending on the objective and the brand for a different organization. So actually understanding what I was selling before I went to sell it probably meant that I could talk much more in a macro, why is it good? But then tactically how it comes to life. So that was a really nice grounding at a time where the Ds were I think 17th on the ladder and not really experienced a lot of success.

at that time and being able to grow through that journey was pretty exciting.

seancallanan (05:12.526)
and was part of, I guess, that early piece, like you said, understanding that inventory piece, understanding what you could deliver, whether it was, here's the things we always do, and we can do the logo slap, and we can do these things, but then also the creativity that, know, digital teams and the servicing team can do, whether it be activation of ground, scoreboard work, stuff out in the community, that kind of stuff to sort of say, hey, we've got a really wide.

a bunch of options and not just sort of, here's a menu, please select from it.

Orry Lack (05:47.118)
Spot on. I think being able to, when you're in a sales role for a sports rights holder, you could probably sometimes fall into a trap of selling what I call like a piece of grass. So if you think of a triathlon, you might be able to sell a piece of grass at the finishing line. But then what you put on that piece of grass and actually create a connection with the potential fan or customer is actually important. being able to not get too granular in your ideation, but being able to demonstrate

seancallanan (05:58.222)
Mm-hmm.

Orry Lack (06:16.834)
then how that asset can be used tied back to those business objectives, I think is an effective way to build advocacy within the internal champion that's putting that up the line. So very rarely are you doing a deal in the first instance with the CFO or the GM. You're probably talking to whether if it's direct to brand, you're probably talking to the marketing coordinator, maybe you get a look at the CMO.

they get the understanding of what a partnership could look like, but you've got to be able to give them the tools to be able to articulate that in their own words back to the business why that investment makes sense. So trying to strike that balance between how you use that coin toss to, for a stakeholder relationship perspective to what kind of brand and scoreboard piece look like to using the sheer power of digital, especially in this age, to reach either lookalike audience or new audiences is super important.

seancallanan (07:13.327)
And as part of the secret sauce in that sort of conversation, that relationship, helping them understand or even re-educating them on what they think. Someone will come in and go, this is what we want. We're really strong on this platform and we want something on Instagram because I know it works. And you have to sort of re-educate them to say, well, you do need a mix of these things for that broader awareness piece. Or we have to educate our fans on what you actually are.

like sort of to move away from that, sometimes I'll just come in with that straight shot and this idea and this is what's gonna work.

Orry Lack (07:46.446)
Totally, and I think if you were to flip that, if you're talking to a B2B brand, one that's only having conversations with SMEs or enterprise businesses, educating about the importance of, now they're there for the handshake, they're there to understand whether they get a coffee or a meeting to able to sell their product or service, the ability to build trust through tactical B2C high visibility assets means that that first interaction is far more warmer.

seancallanan (07:54.745)
Mm.

Orry Lack (08:14.284)
And sometimes being able to talk to that B2B brand that, hey, that tactical coaches box asset, whilst it won't directly sell your product or service to a small medium business, it means that that first handshake for your business development manager is a lot stronger. And I think being able to make sure that those entitlements are seen as symbiotic, I probably always educate my team.

and they're on front line to go, if you were the brand manager and you knew what you had under your bonnet of being able to sell to a brand, what would you want to receive as part of that proposal so that you're setting the partnership up for success as opposed to just what the best deal is for the footy club? Because I find if you put the right sort of bullets in the gun, an execution of a great plan is a lot easier for the servicing team.

seancallanan (09:01.85)
Absolutely. And then you've also got partners that are being, are spreading their dollars in different places, whether it's their own paid spend, their own spend, their own media spend, and potentially other partners. They might have a festival partnership with a music festival or with other teams. So you've just got to realize you're part of their mix and how you can help them sell what you've got and what you can offer.

Orry Lack (09:27.896)
Definitely, and I think there's probably a reason why a lot of international brands also focus their energies towards major sports partnerships in Australia, mainly because they can build trust and recruit audiences in a way that is very hard to do when you're an unknown brands coming into a new market. So the ability to put faces and IP to your brand just builds that trust bank from a very early stage.

you've still got to, as a brand, you still got to deliver on what you say that you're to sell. I think that when it comes to being able to lead that horse to water, it's really important that the footy club understands what it can do and what it can't. But if you believe in the products and you can then build trust through IP usage through rights holders, I think it's a really effective way to be able to fast track that penetration into a new market.

seancallanan (10:17.955)
So we've sort of skipped over a bit of your career and talked about your time at Melbourne, but now you are at North Melbourne. You've been there for a couple of years now as the Chief Commercial Officer. For those who don't know that, you know, might not be in Melbourne and Australia and be familiar with the AFL, tell us a little bit about North Melbourne Footy Club.

Orry Lack (10:21.644)
Okay, sorry.

Orry Lack (10:36.204)
Yeah, so I was at Melbourne Footy Club for seven years and then you moved to the mighty North Melbourne Footy Club for the last three. What people may not know for you, especially international audiences, is North Melbourne Footy Club is 156 years old. We're older than Manchester United and have a deep rooted history here, three k's away from the CBD of metropolitan Melbourne. But we've come from a very small postcode and we weren't

an initial inductee into the what was then the VFL competition, we had to bide our time about 30 years in the second tier competition before we got our chance to play in the AFL VFL. And actually this year, we celebrated 100 years of playing in the AFL VFL competition. As a footy club, I think what's so interesting when you and maybe a natural question is the differences between Melbourne and North Melbourne. It's crazy to think there are those unique

differences, but there is still lot of similarity. I often find myself talking to Kodri members or high net wealth member supporters, and it's very similar conversations. You're probably just swapping out the mid 90s footballer for both clubs, but having very similar stories. And I think what you find is what makes North Melbourne uniquely North Melbourne versus the others in the competition.

What I found at the Melbourne Football Club was there was probably a bit more of skew towards an affluent audience, given its upbringing. North Melbourne's probably come from a little bit more of a blue collar type atmosphere, a very industrial part of North Melbourne. But like any postcode, when you've got a close proximity to the CBD has gentrified over the years. So there's sort of this blue collar.

grit determination that underpins our footy clubs brand and persona. But then it's spread over last hundred years to be what most football clubs are. And that's a really broad church and a really cross section of society.

seancallanan (12:47.936)
And so, moving to North Melbourne and Melbourne as a city, as a sports city, is a very competitive city from a sports business point of view. You've got nine other AFL teams in the town and other major events pushing. When you're going out to market, what are you doing to set North Melbourne apart as a commercial property?

Orry Lack (13:11.49)
Yeah, I reflected on this actually recently. When I got to North Melbourne. What I wanted to do is understand who our fan was. I always find when it comes to commercial partnerships, the best brands are the ones that align with what your fans want. And when I think and reflect back to my time at Melbourne, for a long time there, the Ds might have steered away from the stereotype of what I call the Ted from Turok. Now the reality is Turok is an affluent suburb here in Melbourne, but

Commercial brands like talking to people with disposable incomes. So you sort of land the Jaguar Land Rover partnership that feeds into a country road, which feeds into a Penfold, which feeds into an IG. You can understand the cluster of an audience that makes sense. When it came to North Melbourne, I knew that I couldn't just pick up that same playbook. It's what makes sense for North Melbourne. And so we actually invested a fair bit of energy and effort into…

and working with the guys that met a fan with Brad Schultz and the team to understand who our fan is. because when I looked at the first 10 postcodes of where our members reside as a very primitive way of understanding our fan is, you had the natural brand organizations you think, sorry, the natural postcodes that you would think would show up. So North Melbourne, Moody Ponds, know, Northern suburbs, but we have Brighton, Werribee, Hoppers Cross and it was a very diverse fan base.

So understanding who we are and what makes our fan tick, I think is the first building block. And what we've found is North Melbourne has a very progressive fan base and one that has very much grown up on true values of grit and determination, but now has a deep connection with community. And so probably what I've over the last two years then built up a little bit of muscle on is telling our DNA story.

which is, and probably building what our club purpose is, which is to be champions on and off the field. Champions on field is very easy to quantify, but how did we start going about quantifying being champions off field? And I think once we've been able to tap into that, I think there's been a pretty amazing response from a commercial perspective because we've been able to find that alignment.

seancallanan (15:07.179)
Mm-hmm.

seancallanan (15:31.606)
I mean, and that sort of leads me to one of the reasons I reached out. So I you post on LinkedIn about B Corp certification for North Melbourne Footy Club. Like, yeah, what was the process? Why did you do it? You know, what is a B Corp? You know, there might be people going, what is a B Corp? But like, yeah, take us through, like, it's the process of that and why you tackled it.

Orry Lack (15:55.052)
Yeah, so it's been two years in the making. The B Corp process. I am was fortunate enough with the Melbourne Free Club to work with an organisation called Beyond Bank. Beyond Bank was the first certified B Corp in Australia for the banking industry and probably got to understand what that meant for them. For the benefit of your audience that don't know what B Corps are. B Corp is a movement that started over in the States a number of years ago that now sees 10,000 global brands and over

750 Australian and New Zealand brands sign up to a charter that means that they're for profit but also for purpose and the ability to not put profit above all other considerations. Make no mistake, there's no point being a B Corp if you can't make money because you're no longer a business. But Australian businesses that are B Corps now employ over 56,000 Australian New Zealanders with really well-known brands.

And probably what I and a couple of our team identified was the values alignment of being champions off the field. We have one of the strongest community arms in the Australian footy league. So we have 25 full-time resources hitting the pavement, doing amazing work for not only the North Melbourne Footy Club, but government programmes. And it's called the huddle. The huddle is fantastic, but it's sort of a bit hard to explain in an elevator pitch.

So being able to have a tool like B Corp that credits and provides that sort of external validation around what we're doing from an environment perspective, a community perspective, our workforce, was something that was pretty attractive. So two years ago we started the process, we did a self-assessment and we realized without having to change too much of our business, we would in theory hit a threshold that would allow us to secure B Corp status. But at that time,

not one sporting organisation in the world had become B Corp. So we knew that we were probably looking to break new ground. part of that validation process in terms of the assessment is we obviously put it to our board to understand whether this is something we wish to pursue, mainly because there is a constitutional change requirement to reaching B Corp status, but also talking to the brands that are currently within the ecosystem and those who have exited the ecosystem as to why.

Orry Lack (18:18.638)
to understand if this was the right fit for us. You fast forward 18 months, two years on, and we were technically the first sporting organization in the Southern Hemisphere to secure B Corp status, and only pipped by a few months by a Belgium soccer organization that got the first B Corp status. So you can imagine I'm probably campaigning pretty hard for a study tour to understand how they're doing things over there. But for us, and

probably to the purpose of your question, what's the linchpin of why you did it? One is because we know from a workforce perspective, AFL is a very young environment, a lot of the younger staff members, and we know that when it comes to community environmental impact, that skews much younger in terms of its consideration, so to attract great people. But yeah, speaking to like-minded brands, to create a USP for us, a unique selling point.

We already had the case study there with an existing partner in Trepid and we do think that there's an opportunity for us to be able to talk to some of these like-minded brands that share the B Corp logo.

seancallanan (19:23.925)
Absolutely, but also like you are seeing a shift in sponsorship, know, away from like counting logos and looking to go, hey, I wanna engage you because I wanna engage in those community programs or I want you to help us with our sustainability message or we wanna know how we can give back and you've got those programs. So.

I mean, it effectively becomes a bit of a tick of approval, but it becomes that USP view, but also to have that conversation and say, yes, we can give you brand exposure when we're on the telly. And yes, this is what it looked like when we run out at Marvel Stadium, but it's like starts that conversation a little bit deeper and moves away from logos and impressions.

Orry Lack (20:01.976)
Definitely, and I think the most successful partnerships in my experience are ones where it's multi-layered. So we're having a conversation with the marketing teams to understand where the logos go through and what the digital CPMs look like and what the ROI is in terms of driving conversion. But you're equally talking to sustainability teams, you're talking to HR teams, you're talking to understanding First Nations strategies, which obviously most of the clubs are really proficient in and was an important part for us. But I suppose for North Melbourne,

Our huddle program talking to new Australians and having 25 boots on ground hitting community through the Wyndham area, which is a very multicultural part of here in Victoria, is an ability to then mobilize a shared goal. So if you can imagine one of our newest partners being One3Cabs, one of the major point-to-point transport organizations here in Australia.

Not only from a building there want to drive passenger numbers, but from a driver engagement perspective to understand what their buses and cab network can do for driving new fans to game. That's something where there's a shared opportunity for us to enjoy one another's success. And I often find that when you create what I say is the win-win-win model, where it's the win for the brand, the win for the club, and the win for the fan, normally they're the stickiest partnerships.

So when you add additional layer of that to talking to a value set of understanding your positive impacts on the community and wanting to do better, I just feel like that's a much more authentic relationship.

seancallanan (21:36.347)
Absolutely, like you said that that piece of you know, bringing on you fans talking to multicultural fans that are new to the sport One tick the boxes from what you're trying to do commercially but also You know, you're also helping your fan development team and your membership team, you know bringing completely new prospects But not just you know, spet hitting them up with a message It's like giving them a bit more of a meaning. I'm going to go to a kangaroos game because they were in my school or they ran this program or you know a lot of the cases

it's the first touch point of with a club and it's like, well, now I've got a team.

Orry Lack (22:09.496)
Definitely, I think harnessing our competitive advantage in that space is the kangaroo. It is the national emblem and being able to have those corridors of Wyndham. if you think of, and apologies if I'm getting too Victorian here, Sean, but if you think of those suburbs of Point Cook, Tarnate, where it'd be extremely strong multicultural communities and in particular Southeast Asia. So one of our other interesting developments.

And I think the importance of being able to drive a commercial result, but also having that really symbiotic relationship, what we're trying to do from a consumer perspective is we made the call to move to Kookaburra, leading in Kookaburra apparel, going into the 2026 season across our AFL and AFLW program. Why do that? First of all, one, Burleigh Seek and Kookaburra have experience in the football industry through their Burleigh brand with free male doctors. So we knew that there was…

and understanding that they could deliver on the high performance product, which is obviously super important for our three departments. But instead of going with the Seacon brand, one of our highest profile fans across North Melbourne's history is Ricky Ponting. So you can imagine if you can then harness the power of Ricky Ponting talking to new Australians with the Kookaburra logo and harnessing the power of the kangaroo,

how do you go into those communities and introduce football with the familiarity? And I think Ricky wasn't there so much for the Kookaburra piece, but you can imagine Ricky being like, hey, I go for North Melbourne, you should too, subtitles in local language, and you've got that then ability to build trust. Where that's a shared benefit for Kookaburra, they're looking to penetrate back into the Victorian market for using Kookaburra footballs.

So instead of handing out merchandise that might get used once and then binned, we're putting tens of thousands of dollars of Kookaburra footballs into the community of Wyndham with QR codes to scan and redeem member tickets back into Marvel. So from a youth and growth perspective, that kind of win, win, win starts to kick in. And what we educate our staff based a fair bit on, actually I'll tell you a anecdote. The start of the year I talked about

Orry Lack (24:26.54)
where we're going to move to this Kookaburra partnership and the upside benefits. And I've drawn this article under the John Howard government, Australians were having 1.9 children. Now Australians are only having 1.4 children. So we can't rely on intergenerational growth for our fan base. We have to introduce and bring new fans to the game. I really thought I nailed the message. I'm sitting there feeling pretty proud and I hear a young membership officer turn to a friend and say, who's John Howard?

So I thought, okay, I have a quiet mark there in terms of being able to that story, but you can sort of see why that top of funnel for that new found growth is really important for us.

seancallanan (24:56.911)
Yeah.

seancallanan (25:05.839)
I mean, yeah, that multicultural fan and the changing, I guess, landscape of Australia, not just Victoria, you know, more immigrants coming to the game. And I think I did see someone sort of said that, you know, the 60s and 70s, like all the European immigrants came and they adopted AFL because it was the thing to do in Melbourne. And you see that with, you know, the Italian community with Carlton and, you know, different pockets of the European community latching onto a team. And it's that

you know, Southeast Asian that still hasn't quite like latched on to, you know, and figured out one is it playing, how do you come to the game. So those entry pieces are important. And when you have a former Australian test captain and legend like Ricky Ponting, like who is a, you know, a mad roo. And that's a good thing when you get a sportsman from another, like they stop being a sportsman, they just become a footy nuffy when they're at the footy. It's great to have someone like Ricky Ponting on board to say, hey,

Jump over with the kangaroos

Orry Lack (26:06.368)
And the proof point was last week, the first day of the ashes test, obviously major cricketing event. If you go back over social media channels on 7 Cricket, there's a North Melbourne post with Harry Seasall and Ricky Ponting being able to infiltrate.

Aussie rules football on day one of ashes on one on an account that has 250,000 followers. It just brings new exposure to us as a footy club to those audiences. But for the commercial brands on the Polo and Guernsey assets, they're reaching a whole different audience that's not AFL, which for us being able to demonstrate that return on investment in terms of exposure and quality of exposure is definitely a competitive advantage for us that we believe is a shared goal across not only the club but our brands.

seancallanan (26:54.16)
Speaking of major sponsors, you signed Sheik as a new co-major sponsor. Again, if you look at that, how did that come about and then what are they looking to get out of that relationship? How do you sort of develop that?

Orry Lack (27:08.546)
Yeah, and I think it's a really good example for any sort of younger or new business teams listening into this episode. The conversation with the key decision makers there started a couple of years ago. It unfortunately, a couple of years ago, didn't go anywhere, but you put your best foot forward and it just sticks there in the background so that when the change of scope happens and maybe a different…

budget investment happens, there's probably a familiarity that you get a tap on the shoulder saying, hey, we'd like to invite you to have a conversation around what a potential partnership looks like. Sheik as a brand has been around since 1958. It's an international brand, but for…

its ability to continue to grow in the Australian market through its distributors. So I think the good guys, JB Hi-Fi, Harvey Norman, their ability to tap into that AFL audience and build a familiarity when it comes to that shop front is super important. So the brief from Sheik was pretty simple, is how do you build and generate trust and exposure through a sports partnership so that when you are confronted with the wall of fridges or the wall of TVs, the good guys, there's a distinguishing factor, not only for the Melbourne,

fan, but the wider AFL fan. they're an extremely, I would say they're really accessible product as well in terms of its reach. And probably where that alignment was in terms of our fan base with that blue collar heritage, but also our new fan and development opportunities through Wyndham and some of our strategic relationships out there. It's a probably a product base for a lot more of the broad church of the community. So partnering with Mazda and seeing those two logos side by side.

it was a great way for them to build trust across an Australian sporting landscape.

seancallanan (28:56.515)
And the thing is that you can deliver when they're, like you said, they're in market, but they just want to bring that uplift of awareness for people to go, what's that? Because we were getting swamped with different brands and different, and you go into, like you said, buy a new fridge or a new TV and you go, which one should we look at? That bump of, I now know that brand because I've seen Nick Larky kick a goal from 60 metres with the chic Lego on his back. It's like, it's at least that starting point, but then it's…

how do you deepen the ties with your fans and sort of tell that education story a little bit more is really important. Then when you're seeing a TV ad or it's in a brochure or those kinds of things, builds that recognition.

Orry Lack (29:37.176)
Definitely, and I think once we got, once we signed the deal, there was a couple of AFL and AFLW players saying, I actually own a Sheik Fridge. And so Libby Birch, who's a three time Premiership player in the W program goes, I love the retro fit. I thought it was pronounced cheek.

So when in terms of that awareness piece, and the best thing about a brand like Sheik is they understand that who and what is Sheik, why Sheik, and then why would I consider it, that funnel takes that time process. So trying to sell before you know what they are is sometimes a trap for a brand. understanding the work needed to be done to invest in the brand first and then sell second is definitely the secret sauce.

seancallanan (30:19.095)
And then I guess now that you've sort of know you've got some players that have got it and already love the brand. It's like, cool, we're going to do a what's in your fridge segment and we're going to do it in six months time and you're already enthusiastic about it. Like that's when you can start doing some of that cool stuff that fits the fans are getting involved and the players can lean in.

Orry Lack (30:36.664)
Definitely, and we've got a men's player in Kamzoo who has a number of followers on TikTok, very food orientated. I'll give him a plug, bullscooking on Instagram if you wanna follow. Great recipes, and you can imagine that how do you integrate those home appliances that we all require fridges, TVs, washers, dryers, and normalize that with using an IP. You can imagine that content being quite engaging and quite easy to execute.

seancallanan (31:05.102)
Just so we, just for now, I'm date this one. We're recording this late November. The North Melbourne AFLW team, which has taken on all comers, is in the grand final. this will be published after the grand final. is it? 26 games in a row undefeated. Tell us a little bit, obviously you've sort of talked about that success on the field and, you know, success off the field, but what, know, North Melbourne's been leaders in the AFLW space. What's the…

What's the women's program meant to the footy club?

Orry Lack (31:37.398)
Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I think for us what I walked in the door, I'm lucky enough, this will be my fifth

consecutive AFLW Grand Final that I'm involved in. And I feel very fortunate to have come from an environment where Melbourne and North Melbourne both prioritized their W program. What was really interesting when I walked through the four doors of Arden Street is whilst we don't have a huge footprint here at Arden Street, it drives connection. And there's just positive signals for our W team to compliment our men's team. What I mean by that is the change rooms are exactly the same size across AFL and AFLW.

training program right now, our men's program is in full swing for preseason, but the W program is playing in a grand final. So the men's have moved their training schedule to fit in to the high performance to make sure that we're giving that W program the best chance to go out there on Saturday and win. And I think being able to even elevate an AFLW role to the executive, not as a subset of a wider footy program, but W being on its own exec role, it's just signals about how we truly

invest in our W program and make sure that there's giving them every chance to succeed and for me

there's this little piece where we just recruited a player from a different club going into this season. And when you walk through the under the area of Street, the first photo they see is actually a big wall graphic of our AFLW Premiership team from last year. Not a men's product, not a Premiership for 1975. The first image I see is women, there's heaps of clearly just with 100 years versus 10, there's a lot more men's content than women. But again, just a signal that the first thing you see when you walk in the door is celebrating

Orry Lack (33:24.848)
women's success, but we just shows that we are going to continue to invest in the program for it to be the best place it can be. and I think just a sorry extent on that is Darren Crocker, who's our current coach, and should if he's not already won it be another coach of the year this year in W. He's a product and a Premiership player of the 1990s men's team. And

you'd be forgiven to think that a 1990s AFL footballer may or may not invest in W as a product that adds value to your organisation. But his ability to harness the heritage of North Melbourne and cultivate the W into being something that is just part of our fabric, I think has been an extremely important part of the reason they've been so successful since entering the competition seven seasons ago.

seancallanan (34:15.469)
I mean, one of the things you do hear about when you hear North Melbourne is the shin bonus spirit. Is that something that Croc has like embedded into the program? So it feels like very North Melbourne.

Orry Lack (34:27.724)
Yeah, and I think the is so interesting. We did a bit of brand work and we asked externally.

what does shinbona mean to you and some of the the steak behind shinbona spirit has takes very different terms but ultimately where it's involved is that ability to have that grit that determination and wanting to almost go into battle with your with your teammates. The weekly shinbona award is something that is probably the club's highest honor across AFL and AFLW to demonstrate the values we're trying to see come out of our playing

group. And I think when you start to contextualize what the spin Shinbona spirit means internally, it naturally seeps externally. And every AFL club does their member survey at mid year and half year. And when you look at the SoundCloud, the number one word that our fans associate with the club is Shinbona. Interestingly, Mazda is number two. So Mazda is actually above Kangaroo when it comes to North Melbourne, hence the synonymously with it. But

explaining you don't know what shinboner is until you've been in the four walls, we've been part of that program. So where we've probably evolved our

marketing approach to talking to our fan is when you're talking to that rusted on shin boner, embrace shin boner and embrace what it means to your footy program. But when you're talking to a new fan, dial down that as something that you have learned once you get affinity with the football club, because shin boner to a new fan is very hard to articulate. So I think what the best campaigns come through, I credit say the Collingwood footy club with side by side and the resilience of side by side through good times and bad.

Orry Lack (36:11.024)
shin bone is probably that for us when it comes to our fan base, our rusted on fan base. It's the determination when you're not performing on field and then it's the collaboration when you're succeeding.

seancallanan (36:23.979)
Absolutely, I mean, it is part of the brand, but it's like, you get introduced to it once you're in. It's good way of articulating. I do wanna sort of touch more on the AFLW, because it's a very different product, both on the field, when it's played, but then also commercially. Again, the AFL world has embraced it, but it's only been there 10 years. How have you got about, I guess,

pitching it commercially and saying, here's what AFLW is, here's what AFL is, here's what the whole club is, and helped explain that to your partners.

Orry Lack (37:02.926)
I think, again, I want to reinforce, I've been very lucky that both Melbourne and North Melbourne have had such strong

integration of their W program. How I've approached it from a commercial perspective is still back to that ethos is, and let's use Mazda as an example, it shouldn't require our men's or women's team getting a kick on a Saturday of how you use your assets to help drive car sales. But when you think about the women's game and what it's done in terms of participation numbers and introducing and reaffirming the female audience member, a lot of brands are targeting

that female consumer. And I think being able to have that full complement of the men's and women's program allows you to talk to different brand messages for different products.

The way that we set up at the Kangaroos is we don't do AFL or AFLW commercial relationships because I think any way to drive meaningful return across the sports sponsorship, you need much more than 12 weeks of a season. So you are a North Melbourne commercial partner, but you might be a champion of the women's game depending on your asset mix and depending on what you're trying to achieve. what I find that then creates a much better benefit is, and yeah, my three years at North Melbourne,

We've had 41 weeks of the 52 week calendar with live content. So then if you've got that shared program across the full season, all of a sudden you are relevant and live in 41 weekends of the 52 week calendar, which is a really powerful thing for the AFL to have that concentration across the course of a year. And I come back to that point, on day one of the Ashes, Seven Cricket is posting a North Melbourne piece of content because of that channel, and with W being so relevant,

Orry Lack (38:52.816)
in this weekend of being Grand Final, you've got a gap between the ashes and you've got a chance to celebrate W. Is it the right time of year? That's definitely a conversational point, but it's definitely created a much more well-rounded commercial program for us to be in market selling to a wider audience.

seancallanan (39:12.018)
Yeah, definitely. I do think it is that total club approach. But the thing is that I'm finding with W is that it is like in some instances, a completely different fan base and demographic and different experience. So what is in the same way that you're getting fans coming to the game through AFLW and then they might come across AFL, but they might just stay there. You're probably getting that same thing from a sponsor point of view. I love going to AFLW. How can I engage that audience? It's like, well, yes, you can. We can make

that's big chunk of your mix, but there's also, here's what we do as a total club, here's what we do in community. It just becomes another really useful, I guess, inventory piece, but a way for you to connect with your fans and make them customers potentially.

Orry Lack (39:56.92)
Definitely, and I think where we are here at Arden Street, the actual…

new station opens up next week as the podcast is being recorded. And the accessibility of Arden and dwell time of your commercial partners at the W game is far stronger than a Marvel game because at Marvel, there's a hustle and bustle to find your seat. If you don't go in the right gate, you might miss that activation. Whereas the ability to get around the ground, use our festival of activity here at Arden Street, it's a very different experience. And I think being able to compliment that is really powerful. So we've just signed a new commercial partner

and Casa, which is a premix gin and vodka RTD. That is a far more effective way to celebrate a Saturday occasion here at Arden Street than with all the corkage and requirements at Marvel. That's a really difficult thing for them to penetrate. So you just find the complimentary products depending on A, audience, B, location, and C, the time of year.

seancallanan (40:55.617)
Absolutely. One of the things I always try to ask and find out, what you've been in the AFL industry now for 10 years, what advice do you have for people who see the big logo or see the AFL world and go, oh, this is amazing, I wanna work in it. What's your advice for someone that is either trying to get in or is just starting in the world of say commercial partnerships?

Orry Lack (41:19.488)
I think now, right now, I often…

will be asked for a coffee about how to evolve or how do I get to the position I'm in. I feel really fortunate I've come from a digital perspective. think moving forward to everyone's point now, if you slap a logo on a Guernsey and think that's success, that's such a 25 year ago way of thinking. I'd like to think that the AFL industry has evolved from that. But having a really grounded understanding of how digital platforms can help echo the work you're trying to do around core products is super

important. So whether it's studies or whether it's experience in some form of understanding how a marketing platform can drive return on investment and return on investment might be sales, but it might be building of trust and awareness, it might be community impact, every brand has a slightly different skew, but understanding how you can demonstrate a used example of how you've been able to do that. What the AFL is, it's just that plus scale.

I think when you get into a Premiership Cyclist, I think back and albeit it was in COVID or lockdown, but some of those competitions that we're doing on behalf of brands in the 2021 season when the Ds won it, was just phenomenal numbers because there is a love and a trust towards the footy club. So if you've got that experience of tapping into what your fan wants to consume and then where it makes sense for a brand to show up, and then if you ever get an interview or a coffee process to demonstrate your wares,

What's that you're doing currently on a micro scale that has the scalability to do it at an AFL level? That's what I always look for when it comes to that first commercial partnership executive type role that you might not have had any partnerships experience per se, but you understand the ingredients for success.

seancallanan (43:07.336)
Absolutely, like I always say, go look at the socials for a bank or a car dealer or a consumer product. And the algorithms make it really, really hard. can't just have a Nick Larky barrel from 60 that you know all the fans are gonna rally around. So it's a matter of understanding how hard their job is and then figuring out that digital piece of, how can we take the best of our stuff and give them some love.

build their brand up, have people recognise that there's a piece because yeah, the gig of running the social for a bank is a tough one.

Orry Lack (43:48.436)
It definitely is and I think

That is the best thing about working at a footy club because, and I talked to my team more time, you might change a piece of copy, you might look at doing a different post a different way, and it might end up on a big footy thread, but people care about what the work you're doing. And you have to open yourself up for a little bit of It's because people care. And ultimately, we're the custodians of something that people have maybe cared about for 50 years. So any kind of activity that you're able to do to demonstrate where you can add value to that experience with a commercial lens,

will always get you out into yorick in most footy clubs.

seancallanan (44:24.423)
Absolutely, and like you said, like if it's not, you know, might be getting experience in other parts, but there's your local footy club, there's your local cricket club, there's like your local basketball club. if you're able to get your response there and demonstrate, that's, you can take some of those learnings that can then eventually level up.

Orry Lack (44:42.99)
Definitely, and I think I still sit on my local creative club committee for that exact reason.

seancallanan (44:50.174)
All right, I really appreciate you taking the time. I want to get to the Sports Geek Closing Five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?

Orry Lack (44:57.976)
Yep, MCG on a Saturday afternoon with my dad watching the D's play the Bombers in the early 90s.

seancallanan (45:07.527)
Terrific, terrific. And the food scene has definitely changed over the years in sport. Do you have a favourite food or a go-to, a favourite food memory or a go-to food at a sports event?

Orry Lack (45:18.306)
Yeah, if you see me at a Marvel game second quarter, I always still cut a lap to get around to the team and understand what's happening in there. I'll buy myself a meat pie with some sauce and sit behind the cheers squad during the second quarter. Just as fancy as those meals are in a Champions Club function, there's nothing quite like a meat pie at footy.

seancallanan (45:38.535)
It does get a mention, I really think I probably should have a Pi sponsorship for the podcast these days. What's the first app you open in the morning?

Orry Lack (45:48.012)
I'd like to say something really posh or nice, but it's probably a skim of Instagram. What I have tried to do a lot more though now is smiling mind and being able to have that meditation angle before I start my day to make sure I set my day up right. I'm trying pretty hard for that to be my first as opposed to Instagram moving forward.

seancallanan (46:07.643)
That's okay. Is there someone that you follow? Might be someone you follow on social media, might be an author or a colleague that you keep track of that the podcast listeners should follow and why?

Orry Lack (46:19.022)
I think, yeah, I was reflecting on this. A friend of mine…

tech startup entrepreneur, a called Matt Berriman, really interesting story. He was the under-19s career captain, does a shoulder and couldn't pursue his cricket career. And now has started up some really interesting fintech programs. And I think just that ability to show adversity then being able to re-harness what made him a great cricketer into a great entrepreneur is something that I've always really resonated and I'm very lucky to call him a friend.

seancallanan (46:53.582)
Very good. And lastly, you can answer this both personally and then you can put your kangaroos hat on. What social media platform is your MVP?

Orry Lack (47:03.938)
Yeah, I'm probably I do lean towards Instagram. But I think LinkedIn is a really close second. I probably find that both those platforms

seancallanan (47:11.866)
Mm-hmm.

Orry Lack (47:15.758)
are somewhat more of a positive skew, and I think the world can bring it down in a lot of different ways. So probably some of the negativity that's starting to kick in to some of those other platforms, I probably grow tiresome of. I'm not saying I want an echo chamber, but I think when it comes to being able to have a positive environment, a constructive environment, I think those two platforms for me are probably the ones I consume the most.

seancallanan (47:37.923)
And what's the go-to one from a commercial point of view for the kangaroos that you're finding more sponsors want to be a part of, be engaged with, asking for clubs for?

Orry Lack (47:49.698)
And sorry for it to be Instagram three times a row, I like Instagram being the threshold for a partner to be on an Instagram grid or story is a lot higher. And I love the fact that that's pushing both organizations to think differently to warrants being on the Instagram channel, the club. And what I really like about that is it's just pushing us all to think a little bit different and more fan first as opposed to brand first. So I'm not saying I'm not

seancallanan (47:59.461)
Mm-hmm.

seancallanan (48:06.896)
Yep.

Orry Lack (48:17.774)
devaluing the other platforms but we've deliberately kept that threshold high and I think that's been to the benefit of all parties.

seancallanan (48:24.825)
Absolutely, absolutely. Like if you don't value it and put that bar high, then, you know, the overall feed and your overall content starts lowering and your fans are the first to tune out. So it's a really good thing. Orry, I always ask podcast listeners to reach out, say thank you to guests. What's the best platform for people to do? Would that be LinkedIn?

Orry Lack (48:50.86)
Yeah, LinkedIn, I've got that ability to slide in and make a connection. Always happy to chat.

seancallanan (48:57.317)
All right, well, I'm going to say thank you. I'm going to say best wishes for the grand final, knowing that this will be recorded after. So after this interview, I'll give everyone the results, but a phenomenal season for the AFLW and all the best for 2026.

Orry Lack (49:11.512)
Really appreciate it. Thanks, Sean. Thanks for the chat.