Navigating the Disruptor Sports Landscape – Tom Burwell, Bia Sports Group

This transcript has been transcribed by Riverside.fm, no edits (please excuse any errors)

Sean Callanan (00:01.518)
Very happy to welcome Tom Burwell. He is the CEO of BSG. Tom, welcome to the podcast.

Tom Burwell (00:08.515)
Nice to be here.

Sean Callanan (00:10.784)
Not a problem at all. I always like to start the podcast is understanding people's sports business journey, how they got into the world of sports. To take your mind back, how did you get your break or your start in the world of sports?

Tom Burwell (00:24.085)
I'm not sure. Well, I'm not sure I the best way to answer it. I've had quite a diverse approach to the business of sports, but long and short of it is after finishing playing rugby, I was part of a business that we launched with another guy called Tim Lacey called Ultimate Rugby Sevens. Ultimate Rugby Sevens was set up to be an agency that kind of managed commercial rights, media rights.

all things rugby sevens, which was done eight years before the Olympics took place in Rio, the first rugby sevens Olympics, and a year before the decision itself was taken that rugby sevens would be joining the Olympics. Evolution one of that and evolution of two of that failed pretty miserably. We lost a load of money. And I probably somewhat stumbled across evolution three of that working quite well, which then…

spiraled and scaled sort of to all five continents around the world and was really fortunate that that happened.

Sean Callanan (01:26.798)
So, I mean, I've been lucky enough to have a lot of athletes that then, you know, gone into their second phase and some of it in the world of sport. Was it conscious that you wanted to stay in sport? You wanted to stay in rugby? Were you always as a, when you were playing, looking at the back of house and how the game was run?

Tom Burwell (01:32.931)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Burwell (01:46.051)
Well, there's probably a family business to this. So if we go a bit further back, my father's probably only ever earned a penny from the game of rugby, both as a player, a coach, and then an administrator at the very highest level in England and around the world. So I think it's probably somewhat being really fortunate as a…

Sean Callanan (01:57.111)
Okay.

Tom Burwell (02:11.191)
seven year old through to a 15 year old of seeing some things around the world that opened up my mind to the world of sport. I'm fortunate to experience sporting occasions, fortunate to probably be behind the scenes and standing there as that little kid that was probably in the way of everybody, but was really lucky to see that this is something which is incredible. And to be honest with you.

I probably didn't give it any single second thought that the only thing I was ever going to do was work in sport because it was the thing that I naturally probably felt was my calling. I'd like to say that there was a bit more of a conscious thought and speaking really honestly to Sean, at times over the last 20 years, I probably wish there had been a bit more of a conscious thought because, you know, this is a challenging industry. It's an industry that you have to…

work exceptionally hard and make up a lot of sacrifices whether you're on the field or off the field. And even today as a 42 year old with a young family, I think some of the decisions that I take are ones that potentially I wouldn't have to in different industries. But as I say, it's been the family business for a long time and one I'm very proud that I continue to be able to work with it.

Sean Callanan (03:23.97)
Well, that does give it that context of one, you obviously being an athlete and getting to play, but also having a bit more understanding of the world of sport and all the work that is done by administrators, coaches and the like. You spoke about, I guess, that early work in Ultimate Rugby Sevens and the trials, the disruption, the, we tried this and we failed. What were some of the things you learned out of those ups and up and down years?

Tom Burwell (03:34.253)
So.

Tom Burwell (03:46.22)
you.

Tom Burwell (03:52.387)
Yeah, look, we had a very clear vision that we, and there's some irony because we'll come onto some of the things that we're just about to launch under a different guise, but in 2008 to 2010, Tim and I had a really clear vision that the announcement of rugby sevens joining the Olympics was going to completely disrupt and.

I wouldn't say revolutionized, but give opportunity for evolution within the rugby sevens game. And we were going to see a professional club game that sat alongside the world seven series. And we actually launched the first ever professional fully televised national seven series in the UK in 2010 taking place across four events, top players across England and Europe. Actually a number of Australians as well.

competing across these four events on Sky Sports. We paid for the production. We basically put a lot of money into that.

Speaking frankly, we were first mover and we were first mover far, far, far too soon. Reality is, is there was an Olympics due to come in 2012 after the decision that Sevens would join and Sevens wouldn't be in those 2012 Olympics. We launched in the UK, yet the UK was going to host the Olympics in 2012. And again, Robbie Sevens wasn't involved. We were seven years away from, you know, the Australian women, women in gold in that amazing way in Rio and Ben Ryan and Fiji winning for the men.

Sean Callanan (04:49.528)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (05:12.503)
We just went too soon and we made an assumption that there was going to be media rights associated with something far too soon. We went too heavy with our investment in different ways to a sport that wasn't ready for it. I also, when I think back now, many, many of the things that we're seeing in the disruptor sports landscape today, whatever sport that be, whether that's ballerly, snow league, rugby sevens, world supercross, any of these things which sits slightly on the outside of mainstream.

Sean Callanan (05:34.509)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (05:39.683)
We now have access to fans via social media networks, via the ability to speak to people, algorithms, et cetera, that were in control of our own world. Back then, you were completely at the beholden of linear and behind paywall TV deals. And we managed to be on Sky Sports, but we were on Sky Sports at like 10 p.m. at night and we paid for that production. Production cost us quarter of a million pounds.

Sean Callanan (05:55.244)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (06:04.215)
you know, we're on as a highlights package when no one's watching it. Reality is, that revenue didn't follow. So I don't know whether that's necessarily that it taught me a great deal in that I would change things now, but.

Sean Callanan (06:17.198)
There is a there's a lot of lessons in being the in being the early adopt like the way too early guy and you know, as you know, I can say that as someone who owned an eSports franchise, you know, five years ago and understand same same sort of things, oh, we're do this. And, and again, wasn't wasn't ready. But like the fact that you didn't have tic toc, you didn't have social media, you couldn't, know, now you've got your own distribution channels, those production costs now completely, completely different. for a long time, you know, so for a lot of your early career, you were in

Tom Burwell (06:21.165)
Correct. Correct. Sure. Yeah.

Tom Burwell (06:40.205)
Sure. Sure. Completely different.

Sean Callanan (06:47.138)
we're in rugby, whether it be the Rugby World Sevens, work with Emirates in Dubai Sevens. Was it a conscious decision to, I mean, one, to go and have a look and work in Formula One to get out of that bubble of rugby?

Tom Burwell (06:48.552)
Yep.

Tom Burwell (06:58.563)
Bye.

Tom Burwell (07:03.521)
Yeah, I am pretty honest about this. I, my time in rugby had run its course for all those reasons that I say about my family business and so on. It has, I was kind of exhausted by it. I probably wasn't the best.

boss, probably wasn't the best visionary anymore in that particular sport at that particular moment because I'd been exhausted by some of the challenges that were self-created, some of the challenges that were third-party ecosystem created. And I don't necessarily say that I went actively looking, but I certainly was ready for engagement and fortunately had been pretty successful and had managed.

had managed a business through COVID in a way where I think we'd come out of it in a really strong way, know, lighting up the Burj Khalifa, saying Robbie Sevens will return in that sort of iconic moment, really sort of pulled the World Series itself out of COVID and that shone a light on me to be, you know, Formula One got in contact.

and said, look, you're running a event at the moment on the World Series. Would you like to come and run our race business? And which ultimately is the commercial contracts of the 24 races that take place on a Formula One season. And I was ready for that jump from rugby. I'll be really honest with you. It was a very, very steep learning curve once I landed in Formula One because of the… Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Callanan (08:26.414)
Okay, I could imagine that would be my next thing. It's like you've come from the world of rugby and you've been steeped in it and there's long tradition and there's a lot of things that they do that well, but then you're going into, you know, Formula One, you know, just to time code it, know, 2022, 2024, and they'll, you know, in the success and the growth that it was happening, what was that, you know, rate of learning and get up to speed and I guess, I guess take on that, like, were they more accepting of

Tom Burwell (08:33.217)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (08:42.872)
Yeah.

Yep.

Sean Callanan (08:55.084)
rate of change and hey, we really want to push the boundaries because they're in that growth inflate, you know, in that hockey stick sort of the curve.

Tom Burwell (09:00.611)
I think a bit of both, right? you know, benefit from the fact that having really endemic fans, really traditional fans and also really new fans, recognizing that the training wheels have been taken off by Liberty Media and the ability to really pursue digital vision and fan experience and almost this hybrid of bringing a lot of the American learnings over into a wider global space.

Also, the quantum that you're talking about financially are just so, so, so different. And in many ways, you're further away from a sport than you've ever been when you're working in Formula One. Formula One is a business to business ecosystem and paddock where businesses and people within businesses and individuals themselves are creating more business for themselves, right? And the sport is taking place around it. And with that sport, it's incredible. But…

My involvement in that sport was never been further apart. I was pretty close to sport previously and I could touch it and I could feel it. I had no impact on what the sport was here, but I had a huge impact on how it could be framed by our promoters and so on. And I think that really helped me understand the business of sport in a different way and not just the development of the sport itself. It also continued to teach me that…

The first thing that you've got to go up right is the sport itself. The sport's got to be at the heart of every decision. and I say this all the time, the sport is not enough. if you, and many, many sports will just be like, we're going to just get that piece out there and be so reliant on that. that's, Formula One itself really, really understand.

that the two hours that take place on a Sunday when the drivers are racing is not enough for it to be where it is today. The reality of the entire ecosystem of framing content that sits around it is the bit has driven the hockey stick growth that we've seen since Liberty Media took on in 2017.

Sean Callanan (10:57.518)
And do you think, mean, again, rugby sevens was, is and was known for the festival, the events, the, what the live thing is for the fan. And, know, we've seen the tennis and the major opens being, Hey, it's a place to be, to be seen. you know, and F1 is very much the same. I was like, have to go to Melbourne earlier this year. And a couple of weeks ago in Singapore and that festivalization of, of sport, like, yes, the sport is still at the heart. You've got to have something there to cheer for and that, that contest, but it's also.

Tom Burwell (11:16.354)
Yeah.

Sean Callanan (11:26.274)
You you go for the context, the concerts, you're going for the to be seen, you go for the Instagram war moment. How much is like, how much is like F1 just leaning into that?

Tom Burwell (11:37.636)
Yeah, think that there's a real, you've just got to be really careful with it. So F1 did brilliantly, but their media rights were already worth an enormous amount of money. And the reality is, that the digital eyeball of between 50 and 100 million people each weekend far dwarf the 300,000 people that were coming through. So if you're a promoter and you're a promoter and you bought out the commercial rights and your opportunity is to monetize those three days to the absolute maximum, as is the case with the government in Melbourne,

Absolutely, they've got to bring through and drive yields on individuals. Formula One itself, revenues for the race itself were already taken as part of the commercial rights buyout.

I think the challenge that a sport like rugby sevens has, and it's a lot of the work that I've been doing recently in this space is the media rights for rugby sevens were worth zero. And the event itself in Formula One is a two hour race. It might be that you've got practice and qualifying to help over the three days, but it's a two hour race. And rugby sevens, it's not like that. It's not one final at the end. There's some rugby that starts at the beginning on a Friday and the final finishes on a Sunday, it's 36 hours. And I say this all the time.

Rugby did the most rugby thing that I could possibly imagine is that 50 plus years ago, it invented a short form version of the sport long before anyone talked about the long form short form version of sport. And they made it longer than its long form version of the sport. So, so as in an age of digital consumption.

Sean Callanan (13:04.546)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (13:12.355)
those media rights are worth zero. And we've actually seen the World Series as less and less of the linear broadcasters have been able to take it because the reality is you're like, okay, I've got to buy a package which is 36 hours long over three days.

And also, you know, in Dubai, where my only interest was the sole three days, I absolutely would, I reckon 80 % of our ticket buyers were there for the entire package. They were there to watch Disclosure. Since I've left, they've been there to watch Stormzy. know, Beats on two is a bar sit on pitch two. There are 5,000 participants, all those things. But I don't think I really cared about the digital rights of world rugby when I ran in Dubai sevens. But.

equally that means the sport is where the sport is today which is that it's struggling for a storyline and that's where we are is that we have to be digitally relevant as well as our promoters having physical opportunities for good yields.

Sean Callanan (14:09.144)
So that we've got a few hop steps and jumps sort of cover your career now at BSG. Tell us what BSG does for the people who don't know and sort of what your role is.

Tom Burwell (14:16.141)
Thank

Tom Burwell (14:20.961)
Yeah, sure. Look, as I say, I've been really fortunate to, I suppose, have a career that has crossed a number of sports and a number of commercial roles, luckily and very fortunately, majority of the time in leadership roles.

And in early 2024, made the decision to join the ownership group of Kiriloui Dreyfus and Juan Sartori, who were in the process of setting up a sports group, is in effect a whole co that sits across a number of sporting assets around the world with a vision of…

the executive team that sits at whole co-level zooming into our assets to accelerate growth. We invest in sports or sports teams that have tribal fandom.

And that tribal fandom is as such that quite often maybe that tribal fandom is underserviced. It is not serviced by its traditional, what we would say now, kind of progressive traditional media ways of thinking and whether that's digital, whether that's content, whatever that methodology be.

They're also quite often capital constrained, human resource constrained or concentrating on today. And as we as a kind of whole coke and we can invest and look through the telescope and kind of accelerate business and look to tomorrow. So the first investment was actually pre the group being set up was Sunderland football club. Sunderland football club was in division one at the time, having had consecutive relegations from the premier league and.

Tom Burwell (16:00.228)
We have owned that for four and a half, five years. And very fortunately, we now find ourselves competing at the top end of the Premier League. I say top end of the Premier League because we've had a great start to the season. What we really mean is competing in the Premier League again and again, doing everything we can to continue to be in the Premier League next year, both on and off the field. And the reason I say that is we have to be Premier League ready to compete both on the field with the best footballers in the world. But we also need to be Premier League ready off the field to compete with the best sports

executives in the world for commercial eyeballs, digital eyeballs and both national and international relevance. We also own World Supercross, which is a traveling circus motorsport, which takes place this year on five continents across six weeks. Huge sport in Australia. Australia has always been a huge market and audience for us and continues to be. We race in Gold Coast in November. And we've also come in almost full circle.

We are currently incubating the world's first franchise rugby sevens league, not too dissimilar to what I launched back in 2008, which will be launching in August, 2026, which also shows you the first mover thing when we're 18 years later. And we're in the process of franchise sales for that.

Sean Callanan (17:14.883)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (17:20.195)
Plus we're under exclusivity on two other assets we're incredibly interested in. Top 14, rugby in France. We think that that's a market that is going to continue to see growth underpinned by a great broadcast deal. And we're very interested in sport that is coming out of Africa, which we see as a really next big market using some much of the methodology that we've done previously.

Sean Callanan (17:44.878)
So that's a massive remit. with multiple sports, multiple fan bases, there's a lot to unpack there because there has been, in the last 10 or 15 years, this swathe of private investment, acquiring teams or getting into team ownership as a growth engine, but then also bringing their own sets of skills and skillsets to it. What do you think you and your team are bringing to?

Tom Burwell (17:47.499)
Yeah. Sure.

Sean Callanan (18:13.57)
you know, the Sunderland's the super cross to, give that to, you know, that, guess that growth accelerator you're talking about.

Tom Burwell (18:20.245)
Yeah, I think you're right. We're not passive investors, we're owner operators of businesses. And one of the things that I did from the outset was we needed to invest in world-class executives that sat at a whole co-level that many of these businesses wouldn't be able to afford to take on in a kind of isolated single vertical. So first of all, that gave me to access to people.

We then we then invested in sort of what we say is a proprietary platform but the reality of what that proprietary platform really means is if you think of all of the digital requirements that those businesses may need above or below the line, how can we flatten the curve both on expertise, technology and probably cost across those businesses? 100%, you know, and not to dissimilar to what a traditional private equity model would look like but potentially a little bit more hands-on than that.

Sean Callanan (19:03.286)
Yeah, some shared services types models around some of those things.

Tom Burwell (19:14.253)
And then I think there's a reality to these things, which is that whilst that might feel, what is the comparable between Hayden Deegan, a 20 year old motocross guy racing in the Gold Coast to Granit Xhaka scoring against Everton last night? Reality is 80 % of everything we're talking about is the same thing. And we're talking about driving eyeballs, digital and physical.

We're talking about servicing brands, partners, sponsors, giving the opportunity to have them the largest voice we can do. Central League distribution, media rights, all of these things are the same things. We're really clear in the sort of five verticals that we believe we've got level of expertise within. And…

Then the nuance of, call it, basically I call it what's the different flavor of ice cream that we're sort of maneuvering today. Because the difference between a lot of the conversations we have in Sunderland and the conversations we have in Rugby Sevens are not wholly that different. I think where we face potentially our biggest challenge is…

when we're the owner of a league and we're the owner of a team. In an ideal world, we're interested in investing at league level IP. League level IP, we're in control of our own narrative. You're in control of the central distributions and you can build the sports eyeballs yourselves.

team clearly is impacted by what happens across the whitewash. Now you can put all sorts of things in place to say that this works, but there's also a load of things that you can't control. And some of those have played out really well for us over the last 18 months, but equally, if you look at Sunderland the three years previous, we made the playoffs in the championship, we then finished 17th and then we made the playoffs in the championship.

Tom Burwell (21:08.235)
you wouldn't say that that differential between playoffs and 17th is that much different, but something happened. And as a business owner, you potentially would rather not be facing those things. So Sunderland is the anomaly, not the rule. And that does mean that maybe instead of 20 % difference, there's maybe a 40 % difference in the way our football club operates compared to the way our leagues operate.

Sean Callanan (21:33.39)
I mean, it's very, I mean, it's very different. Uh, uh, I guess fan challenge, you know, you've got Sunderland with his tribal fan base and traditional family base. People who listen to the podcast will, you know, well, those subtle until I die and the, and the story behind it. And then you're going to, Oh, completely green fields, new franchises, you know, new teams going through the sale and being in that, uh, you know, new fan growth piece, which, you know, we've seen it happening, cricket and other leagues that were popping up all those other leagues you're sort of talking about.

Tom Burwell (21:45.292)
Cool.

Sean Callanan (22:03.17)
How, again, like that shared service, know, the membership team that works with Sunderland and the membership teams working with a new startup club, you know, the challenges are very, very different. How do you try to get that, I guess, model working and getting them to help one another?

Tom Burwell (22:11.617)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Burwell (22:19.561)
Yeah, they are different, but we're only interested in investing in sports which already have a level of tribal fandom. we will, let's recognise rugby has had its challenges around the world, but it's still, rugby world cup level has multi-millions of fans around the world.

World Supercross as a moat both both if you look at it endemic clear as most ball fans And then you actually begin to look at two-wheel dirt bike fans. It is still by the notion of big sports What we're not really interested is is the creation of fans. We're more interested in the minute in the maneuvering of fans so I Wouldn't be necessarily turning around and investing in pickleball or paddle Don't be wrong

I absolutely see it as a participation sport. I understand it as an infrastructure investment. But as a, okay, I am a fan and I'm going to watch a paddle competition online. That you've got, you've got to create that for somebody that's we're not in that space. So so correct.

Sean Callanan (23:21.464)
Yeah, yeah.

Whereas you've got like tired eyeball people who want to consume it. They want to be fans of it. It's like, how can we engage them, engage them first? And then if you can get that, you know, F1 driver's eye bump, new fans can come in, but you've already got a solid fan base. just, it's been under delivered, poorly delivered, not delivered at all. And that's where the opportunity is for you guys.

Tom Burwell (23:32.119)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (23:36.02)
Yeah, correct.

Tom Burwell (23:41.571)
Correct.

Yeah, correct. mean, if you look at rugby, for example, I would say that there's a number of major rugby markets where there is clear interest in the sport, where they are not necessarily being serviced particularly well by a domestic game. They potentially are by their international game, but their domestic game is underservicing them, certainly by digital eyeballs. know, media rights not worth a huge amount of money, and that's not necessarily engaging the right demographics of audiences.

the interest is there because there's a legacy and there's a history of doing so. So, you know, we're interested in kind of reigniting fandom that is already in place or moving fandom or bringing fandom together as well. think that we recognize that.

The men and women's game are different. The rugby and sevens game, the men's 15s game and the men's sevens games are different. We recognize that motocross is different to supercross, but how can we ensure that the sort of middle 20 % between a motocross fan and supercross fan is engaging in both of those audiences? And give an example of something we've done in world supercross is that.

or in dirt bike world really. So, supercross and motocross is quite tribal within the tribe. You put your hand up and you say, I'm an AMA fan. That means you're a domestic series fan in the US. Or you put your hand up and go, I'm an MXGP fan, which is the motocross that goes around the world. Or there might be other, I'm a dirt bike enduro fan.

Tom Burwell (25:13.813)
And so I sort of said, well, look, you know, if we, if we double down on our content channels being world super cross, all we're really doing is pacing ourselves against each of those tribes. So can we create a content channel that puts our arms around all of those things and embraces the culture of dirt biking. then within that, then clearly level and layer our own world super cross content within that vertical. So we created the world dirt collective, which is something that never been created before as a, as a kind of a content.

that embraces all forms of podcasts, vodcasts, live linear broadcasts, non-live, long form, short form, you name it. 15 % of that's World Supercross, but that 15 % is now being watched by all of those other fan groups because it sits in a non-tribal space and it's just embracing all things dirt bike. I think there is a way to look at embracing…

Tom Burwell (26:12.693)
verticals of digital content that doesn't necessarily only speak about the thing that you own the rights on. And in this world where you control your own media distribution, you can basically become your own media channel. And then within your own media channel, what's the work that you want to do?

Sean Callanan (26:27.598)
Bye!

Yeah, I mean, that goes back to 18 years ago when your one shot was getting on Sky. It's like, well, now we can own our piece. Now, whether that piece ends up on YouTube and there's a rev deal there or we're using our own player or it's connected into a Samsung TV and people hit the button. It's a mixed, and because those big bags of money that the Sky and the Foxes and that of the world are getting fewer and fewer for the very, very tippy top. it's like, how can you…

Tom Burwell (26:33.389)
Correct. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

or it's a mixture of all of.

Sean Callanan (26:58.574)
How can you commercialize it? And if you get that tribe that wants to say, want a 10.95, know, 9.95 a month and I want everything dirt, like that to me is the future because you've got the channels and the distribution means to do that when you previously didn't.

Tom Burwell (27:04.023)
Yep.

Tom Burwell (27:14.723)
Yeah, and look, think in, you know, and if I then take that bit of our approach of what we want to do and what we're doing in dirt biking to what we'll do in Rugby 7s. So rugby is a, a, as an audience has got probably its endemic fans. Let's not be ageist, but let's say they're 35 and up, right? And they.

Sean Callanan (27:39.414)
Yep. And you know, I probably say they might be even older than that. Yep.

Tom Burwell (27:43.38)
Yeah, could be, could be, right? But let's say they're 35 and up and there's a level of expectation about the way they expect to see their game. And what I mean by that is when they switch it on, it needs to look, it needs to feel, it needs to sound like rugby. Right? And if it doesn't, they go, what's that? That's not what I'm used to. That's fine. We're all like that in our own way.

Why do I say that that necessarily will help me service the next generation of Roman fans? So one of the things that we're doing at the franchise league is that we'll have two very clear feeds. Now, people do this in their own version. Like Formula One did a kids commentary feed. Yeah, yeah, correct. Correct. Correct.

Sean Callanan (28:20.078)
They do the kids broadcast, the NFL, the NFL did the YouTube, the Brazil game where they had co-streamers. And again, it was the old white guys going, don't wanna watch my football for this. It's like, it's okay, mate, it's not for you. It's for the millions of people that watch TV and streaming through that.

Tom Burwell (28:34.507)
Yeah, correct.

Tom Burwell (28:38.627)
So how we'll do this is that if you switch on to a linear in front of the paywall, so the entire thing will be in front of the paywall, you switch on to a linear TV channel, say it's here in the UK, I'll switch on to ITV, you'll see it how you expect to see it, because also the person that's switching on to linear TV is probably gonna be the person that needs to see it that way. If you switch on to it on a streamer, it will look and feel completely different, right?

Now you'd argue that each of those people, they saw it on the channel, they didn't like it. They probably wouldn't watch it and probably wouldn't like it. But we'll switch them that way. And then there is another group of fans who are live at the event. Ironically, probably a 45 year old dad with a 10 year old, 15 year old kid. And the live product can bring both of them together.

And so we're doing a huge amount of work from the outset, which is, again, recognising that we've got these fan groups and we need to make sure that these fan groups are serviced in the way that's appropriate for them. And so I think you go back to that question about our portfolio. Whilst, yes, it is wildly, wildly different.

It comes back to segmentation of your fans, recognising that there are going to be large and small segments within each of those portfolios and that you need to service them appropriately. It might be, yes, that Sunderland is more service via a traditional broadcast methodology and behind the scenes sporting products that we've known and loved for many, many years because the Premier League can do that. And in other situations, we might need to be more nuanced or we might need to be more creative.

is the same thing as we segment, we work out what those fans want, we work out how we take it to them, and then we, based on the numbers, embrace the bits that we need to do and serve them the content that is what they're going to consume, which ultimately triggers the revenue that sits behind that.

Sean Callanan (30:37.848)
Well, that was going to be my next thing about the revenue piece. investment is great and capital growth is great. But one of things is you can't just keep going back and putting your hand out and saying, someone pay the checks. And I always want to keep paying the checks as long as we win. What does sustainability look like for you when you're trying to roll those, whatever the investment is, whether it's Sutherland, whether it's Rugby, whether it's Supercross? How do you get to sustainability? What are the key things that you're looking for?

Tom Burwell (30:50.211)
sure.

Tom Burwell (31:06.155)
Yeah, Premier League Soccer is a different ball game. We run our club really, really sustainably, of course.

and the central distribution really, really helps. You also need to be really clever with player trading and you need to drive strong revenues in the Premier League. Now, one of the great things about Sunless, we're a big club. We've got the sixth largest stadium in England with 49,000 fans, 42,000 season ticket holders. We've come up and punch well above our weight in the commercial sponsorship space, which means that, you know, we're competitive on and off the field and that's great. And it gives us the opportunity to attempt to be competitive on the field.

Sean Callanan (31:39.15)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Burwell (31:44.836)
For some clubs who come up and might not have that fan base, that would be a lot harder. And so think you have to that into account. I think when you play in the disruptor sports space, like some of the other things that we're involved in, you have to play probably on a slightly longer timeframe. But the reality is, as you say, it's not an endless hole of investment.

and your revenues need to catch up with your costs pretty quickly. We've learned that in a harder way in World Supercross because World Supercross is a expensive business to deliver. The reality is you're moving your most support around the world.

And I think it can show you how we've learned from that is that year one of a global Rugby Sevens business will only take place in Europe. So our seven first events, whilst all of the franchises may come from all around the world, the seven tournament season will only happen in Europe. And the reality of that is we want to make sure that we drive our revenues before we start loading up planes and flying long haul around the world, even if the market says so.

World Supercross, we're committed to those five race continents and you can imagine what that looks like. One of the challenges that means is that you need to make sure that your global revenue matches your global expenses. And that doesn't count as the local P &L, because the local P &L about running our race in Buenos Aires this week will be really successful.

enough fans will come through the door based on the cost of delivering that single event within Buenos Aires, no problems at all. You then lift up and go, right, okay, well, we've got a team deal where teams are paid, we've got riders are paid, they're paid on a global basis. We move those guys around the world. We have our global head office costs. None of those costs have been covered by that local event in Buenos Aires this week. That's all gonna be global revenue. And also recognizing that our media distribution is not gonna be able to demand, as you say, the big ticket options that

Tom Burwell (33:36.982)
potentially other sports are able to do. So you have to work really really hard to build your audience digitally to then be able to deliver a sponsorship business. I think all of these disruptive sports require front-loaded investment and you have to look at it over a much much longer time frame and why do we remain confident and why I suppose do we go back to that point what I said originally which is we'll only invest in

sports assets that have got tribal fans, because what I wouldn't want to be doing is front loading an investment, trying to create fans, and then trying to monetize newly created, but like that, that for me is a recipe for a really a black hole.

Sean Callanan (34:13.698)
Yeah, and yeah.

Sean Callanan (34:22.574)
And so from a recruitment point of view and the people who are working in your org, there's, a, you know, cause a lot of people work in sport and they, they know that, you know, they know the sport they do in a certain way, but you know, those kinds of things of being really commercially driven and having that bigger picture, you know, one, are you getting people from sport? You're also getting people from corporate. it a mix or like, who are the type of people you one want to work in the sports you're in and the teams and things you're investing in or, you know, what are the, you know, what are the qualities they need?

Tom Burwell (34:27.286)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (34:52.611)
Yeah, I think our whole co-level, are predominantly executives from who have had touch and feel of some of the largest IP in the world. So if you look across our org, former CFO of Formula E, which in effect is a very, very large startup, CCO that comes from the Premier League in the NFL, Chief Product Officer that comes from Universal Music and British Airways.

head of &A who comes from mergers acquisitions in betting. So large scale, used to be transactions involved in really deep thinking strategic forward facing. And then I think within each of the organizations themselves, you need to make sure that you're nimble, creative, probably pretty young, certainly…

really in touch with how digital growth is taking place and audiences and understanding audiences and all of those. And then try and find those two sides of the coin to hold each other accountable, which is that the whole Co really drives long-term economic strategy and the asset itself then delivers for the fans that we know that are there.

I think, again, the football club is slightly different because obviously the revenues of the football club mean that it's an enormous business on its own. But finding the mix between football experience and wider sports experience, I think is hugely important. I think if you go back to the question you asked me, it's like, why did you make the jump from rugby? I am a far more all-round executive for my team, even just within one asset.

by having been exposed to all the things I have been around the world. If I had just been that guy from rugby, even within rugby, I would be nowhere near as able as I believe I probably am today. So I do think that having a real mix of experiences, expertise, people, and I think it's, you know, I talk about it sort of like.

Tom Burwell (37:03.523)
There's got to be like a level of diversity of culture and experiences around the table to hold each other accountable to drive growth. And that goes from making sure that we recruit people that can hold me accountable and bring new things to us. And that can sometimes be as simple as just age, you know, that the reality is a 25 year old content creator that decided at 18 not to go to university just to create content via social channels and understands how to grow that.

is far better than I am at any of those things. And able to enlighten us every day on how to do that.

Sean Callanan (37:41.263)
And I mean, I was having a conversation at a conference last week around, you know, the sport does throw in the world innovation, but there's a lot of sports that like are sitting on their hands and they're like, like scared of change and scared of shaking things up because like this is a successful tournament or this is a successful club. We can't do this. We'll upset too many people. And sometimes you just feel like you want to shake. How do you make sure that doesn't creep into what you're trying to do? Cause you sort of want to do that sport startup.

this is the way we wanna go sort of vibe. So how do you sort of shake that up? Because there's a lot of sports that just go, everything we're doing is fine.

Tom Burwell (38:16.737)
Yeah, think that's probably at least half of my job. You know, I think that's as much a cultural thing as it is an endemic thing. You know, when we set up Ultimate Rugby Sevens and it became the world's largest commercial rugby sevens, Rugby Academy anywhere in the world, we set it up on this ideology that it was because talented rugby players.

who were potentially felt that they were under service by that traditional school rugby coach or that traditional club rugby coach who didn't understand them and said you need to be a square peg in a square hole. Needed to be coached by 26 to 27 to 28 year olds that had lived and breathed that themselves and said hey look don't worry about any of that stuff here we're just about having fun and getting the best out of one another and creating a culture and it worked. And then one day

I was 35 and I was not that guy anymore. And I had to realize, I'd be like, oh wow, I think I'm one of those guys that these kids relate to. And I'm now 20 years older than them and they're like.

Who's this guy? Right? And I probably use that lesson more than anything in the organisation that we're building today, which is we say we're going to be disruptive. We say that we're going to keep doing those things. And if we turn around and go, hey, we're you know, we're just existing and continue to do what we did the year before. Then I've got to challenge us. I did it this morning. I'm an early riser. And, you know, there were some emails that went out at four o'clock this morning, which I just said, hey, guys, hang on.

We said we wouldn't be this and we need to hold ourselves accountable to that. And I think the moment that we stop doing those things will either be the moment that I'm beginning to fail or that we need to start making some really internal decisions to say, how do we make sure we fix these?

Sean Callanan (40:13.036)
Yeah, I mean, been lucky enough to meet and talk to different people in different orgs. And it is the one where, you know, leader like a former trial blazer owner, Paul Allen, Microsoft founder, he's like, he was a tech guy, he got tech. And so if you came to him and pitched him an idea and said, this is what it is, and he's the business case, this is what we'll do. He just goes, yes, like, because with my people can, because you know, you don't get that culture of people trying to do that if you're not there, like too many get not know.

Tom Burwell (40:17.453)
Sure.

Tom Burwell (40:27.171)
So, yeah.

Tom Burwell (40:40.387)
Close.

Sean Callanan (40:42.99)
Great to hear that. One thing I was going to ask you and I still will ask you, but you've already exuded it. What about the future export excites you?

Tom Burwell (40:55.403)
You know what, so much of it excites me still. So much of it excites me still. I think that it is an ever-evolving beast because the realities are that we as a society are more demanding on than ever.

with regards to what we're going to spend our money, be it entertainment, social, et cetera. And that just because we've always supported Sunderland doesn't mean that we're always going to continue to pay our season ticket if the experience is, you know, dry and dross. So we as owner operators of IP need to sit absolutely at the forefront of service. We are a service. We are a marketing and production agency and we are servicing the eyeballs of those

want to embrace and consume our sports.

I probably am remaining still quite a long way from the sport and I thought that I got closer to it. But what I probably now feel is I feel like I'm closer to the fan than I've ever been. And a real commitment to whether you're a dirt bike kiddie that's been on it for seven years and is riding a 65cc or you're a 72 year old season ticket holder at Sunderland or you're my father who's 75 years old and still on the

of England rugby and probably think some of the things that we're saying about rugby are a little bit different to what he remembers. We've got a responsibility to service everybody because everybody is worth some money to us and fans should recognize and I'm really open about this we are a business and we are a business and a capital business and one that is aimed to make money.

Tom Burwell (42:44.481)
but that should never come at the expense of making sure that you have the best experience on a Saturday at 3pm.

Sean Callanan (42:52.642)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing I'm, I'm the same, like, you know, what's sport going to look like for a current five year old, a current 15 year old, a current 25 year old that is still just getting engaged with sport compared to, know, most of sport is consumed by over fifties, but like, you know, this, what, what is sport going to be like when all of those, you know, the current 20 year olds are 40, what, like, what is the ad experience going to be? And that's going to be, it's going to be amazing.

Tom Burwell (43:00.162)
sure

Tom Burwell (43:04.173)
show.

Tom Burwell (43:07.511)
Yeah.

Tom Burwell (43:13.111)
Yeah, of course.

Sean Callanan (43:19.598)
Tom, really do appreciate you taking the time. I to get to the sports geek closing five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?

Tom Burwell (43:28.995)
Do I remember the first sports event that I ever attended? I can tell you about some sports events that I do remember going to when I was super young. So I don't remember this one, but I was a babe in my mum's arms at Twickenham when England beat New Zealand 15-9. In 1983, I'd have been eight weeks old. I remember going to Highbury. I'm a Tottenham fan. I went to Highbury.

Sean Callanan (43:37.538)
That's right, no one can Google it, so there's no wrong answer.

Tom Burwell (43:58.636)
to watch Arsenal versus Everton. I wore my Spurs shirt and Spurs lost to Swindon that day. And when that went up on the big screen, everybody cheered against me. And then I remember some really big events and really fortunate to go to lots of World Cup finals. I've been to some Olympics and they've all, all been a huge part of who I am today and taught me many, many things, both in experiences and also provided for my daughter.

Sean Callanan (44:10.574)
Ha

Tom Burwell (44:28.097)
My daughter went to Chelsea Women on Saturday gone. She's been to three or four Premiership games this week. This season already she's playing rugby. I want to provide those same experiences that I had from a very young age to my daughter.

Sean Callanan (44:42.478)
Absolutely, absolutely. Same as a parent going to the footy with my son. The best memories there are. Food at sports events has changed over the years. Do you have a favourite food or a go-to food or a favourite food memory at sport?

Tom Burwell (44:46.679)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Burwell (44:57.059)
I remember the first time that I was at Los Angeles Dodgers, obviously winners of the World Series this weekend, and I've been going to LA for 25 years. And I remember taking my now wife to the Dodgers, was her first experience. And she said, it will just be hot dogs and nachos. So wait till you get there. And it was the most remarkable sushi experience you could possibly have had.

in the middle of a ballpark, which was, I still have stunning experience now, because somebody goes to Twickenham, I still can't quite imagine sushi being served at Twickenham. Yeah, yeah, great sushi as well, like really great fresh sushi, that was the beast.

Sean Callanan (45:32.118)
Yeah, yeah. mean, everyone probably was listening, waiting for you to say Dodger dog, but sushi. Like that's how that's how sport has changed.

Sean Callanan (45:43.79)
Multiple businesses in different parts of the world. What's the first app you open in the morning?

Tom Burwell (45:51.373)
first app I open in morning is my Whoop app, which is my health app.

Sean Callanan (45:56.621)
Yep. So you don't is it it is it to check if you slept well because you don't know.

Tom Burwell (46:01.636)
No, it's not really. Look, I've been tracking my data for last six or seven years and I'm an early morning person and I go to bed pretty early.

One of the first things I do is I go and train and leading a really active, active, healthy life allows me to also throw everything I can do into my work life. So I'm non-negotiable that the first thing in the morning is actually not work or sports orientated. It can be very easy for me to switch on a sports app and work out what happened the night before.

Sean Callanan (46:33.474)
No, that's fine. It's always interesting. But yeah, I do joke something good with, know, how did I sleep? I better check my watch to see how I slept. Is there someone that you follow? It might be someone in the industry, someone, a colleague or someone that you think the podcast should give a follow?

Tom Burwell (46:39.041)
Yeah, did I sleep? Yeah, yeah.

Tom Burwell (46:52.867)
Do you know what I think, I'm going to a slightly different turn on this. I think people should still read books. Yeah, that's what, like, I know, you know, I've just read the latest autobiography by a guy that…

Sean Callanan (47:01.762)
Yep, no, books are fine. I'd normally say author in there, so you can throw in an author or your favourite book.

Tom Burwell (47:14.433)
run the NFL Players Association and ultimately what is a trade union for the last 20, 30 years and is the 33rd owner of the NFL. And the reason I say that is that there's so much stuff in our office where it goes, have you just seen this? Have you just seen this of somebody, an individual that is sharing information there and then? And I'm still such a believer in kind of real case study experience of embracing and learning from those that have been there and done that in real detail. So I'm a book reader rather than necessarily a consumer of social

media following.

Sean Callanan (47:45.677)
No, that's fine. The two that I always recommend is Angela Duckworth's Grit. Have you read that? That's a great one. then I'm constantly rereading Phil Knight's Shoe Dog. Like that's the Nike story. It's an easy one. So I'll skip my last question about social media and VP, but you can answer it. What platform is the one that seems to be working the best for some of your properties?

Tom Burwell (47:51.255)
Yeah, that's great.

Tom Burwell (47:58.31)
Awesome. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Burwell (48:11.715)
I think we look at them all in slightly different formats. What I will say is that the way that YouTube is growing is and continues to grow in service. As long as you're delivering and producing in the right way is incredible.

Sean Callanan (48:17.344)
Absolutely,

Tom Burwell (48:29.475)
I find the way of engaging different audiences through TikTok, Instagram and Facebook, it's still, we produce one piece of content, we basically put a different filter of layer of production across each one and push it out three ways. And it needs to, if I push out that one piece across the three, fails, if I push on that three, I find that remarkable. And then for me personally, I'm kind of an active-lick dinner.

And it's been really interesting to share some of our business growth via LinkedIn to people. And people have appeared to have appreciated some of the experiences that we've been learning with, kind of a business sense. And it's been really interesting to watch and engage with that as a producer of content myself in that space.

Sean Callanan (49:19.534)
Absolutely. And I think it's something that sports business overall, like we should be sharing more of our successes behind the scenes. You've got colleagues, you've got people who are in the industry that want to know there's a lot of sharing there. And yeah, I'm a big fan of LinkedIn in the same. So we'll put a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes. Tom, I really do appreciate you coming on the podcast. Hopefully we're in the same part of the world sometime in the near future. If you're in Australia, let me know. And I'll definitely let you know if I'm in your part of the world.

Tom Burwell (49:28.035)
Great.

Tom Burwell (49:42.068)
Awesome.

Tom Burwell (49:47.765)
Love that. Thanks, Sean. Appreciate it.