This transcript has been transcribed by Riverside.fm, no edits (please excuse any errors)

Sean Callanan (00:01.58)
Very happy to welcome a good friend of mine, Jennifer Hinkle. I've been chasing Jen for a long time, been a long time friend. Jen, welcome to the podcast.

Jen Hinkle (00:10.337)
Thanks for having me.

Sean Callanan (00:12.298)
Not a problem at all. You know, I always start trying to figure out people's sports business journey and their origin story and how they got into the world of sports. What about yourself? How did you find yourself in the world of sports business?

Jen Hinkle (00:26.047)
Well, it's an interesting one. I did my senior project at Clemson with the athletic department and I had no idea that all of that was going on behind the scenes while I was out tailgating at all those football games. So I started gaining a little interest in the sports world beyond being a fan then. After college, I ended up getting a job at a mortgage broker. Everyone was refinancing at the time. I figured out how to kind of automate my job. So was poking around a lot.

found a really cool opportunity to work at the Final Four down in New Orleans. Little did I know I was probably about to sign up to be one of the people sitting in a hotel lobby handing out pamphlets of things to do in New Orleans, but ended up getting in touch with the right people and got to work all of the press conferences behind the scenes, which was really exciting in the Roy Williams, Kansas days and Carmelo Anthony was playing in that Final Four. So it was a

a good intro to sports, met some good people from the Saints and they made an intro to my hometown team in Washington and was able to get an internship that summer with the Washington Redskins. So worked all summer in PR intern and couldn't believe I wasn't gonna get hired after my stellar work and it's just kind of the nature of sports. So I had to kind of wait my turn.

opening happened up at the Baltimore Ravens for my first full-time job and never really looked back.

Sean Callanan (01:59.288)
So is that pretty much again, was like you sort of went from that fandom piece to someone sort of pulled back the curtain a little bit and you went, there's all these opportunities, all these different roles. And it was just something that excited you, you wanted to get involved.

Jen Hinkle (02:13.117)
Yeah, exactly. think that's something I tell a lot of people trying to break into sports, that when I was coming up, there weren't really sports management majors and classes that you could take. You majored in marketing or what have you, accounting. I think that was what was most interesting is that all these teams are businesses. So they have every facet of any business from HR to finance and

You know, I think even when I got some really good advice at Washington when I was looking for my full time job, because I think a lot of people feel like a good foot in the door is ticket sales. And I, is what I am not is a salesperson. So I got some great advice early on and said, you know, if that's not what you want to do, like don't just take that job. Something that's in your skill set that you enjoy will really open up eventually. You just kind of have to keep.

Keep networking with people, look for opportunities. I think that's also something I tell a lot of young folks that coming up, you never know who's paying attention. So even if they're not in your department, they might be the person that helps you get your next job just because of it's a small network of people. As you know, we all kind of run into each other and some people have been at the same place for a lifetime and others have bounced around a lot, but.

Sean Callanan (03:21.005)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (03:37.793)
people are really always willing to, I think, step up and give you that recommendation.

Sean Callanan (03:38.35)
But I think…

Absolutely. mean, and even I love talking to people have been in the industry for a time when you look at their LinkedIn and you look at those job titles, your job title, the Ravens was new media coordinator. Right. And now that's there. That sounds really, you know, what is that? What is that role? But like, it was completely new. Like it was like, what is this? What are these new platforms? So it would have been a completely new role to sort of say, Hey, what are we doing?

Jen Hinkle (03:54.753)
Hahaha

Sean Callanan (04:09.154)
like again, to try to define to someone today what new media is, but that was that early social, early digital, early web, all of that stuff that where they were still figuring it out.

Jen Hinkle (04:20.297)
It was only web at the time and I reported into the IT department, if that tells you anything. So we undertook building out the first MySpace page in the NFL at the Baltimore Raven. So it's amazing how it's evolved over time and it's not new media anymore. You know, this is standard and it's been exciting to get to really get in from the ground up when

Sean Callanan (04:27.736)
There you go, yeah.

Jen Hinkle (04:49.469)
A good buddy of mine, were a two man show for a while there. got a cool little camcorder and a nice camera and we did all the photos and videos for the website and that was about it. But with the social evolution, just the need for adding people and building a team, it's that much more important now. And I think it's also very telling how people are placing social. I mean, it's really a marketing tool in my opinion.

kind of evolved out of IT into comms in a lot of places. And then, you I think people have really figured out that it's all these organic channels that you now have access to. It's how you're putting your brand out there in front of lots, a much, much wider audience than you could possibly get just on your own. So.

Sean Callanan (05:38.67)
Absolutely. then I think that's the thing. are like, we'll probably having this, we'll probably be having this conversation in, you know, 2030. And there'll be roles now that like don't exist. I think that's the also the opportunity in the space that, you know, again, even five years ago, no one would have been, you know, requesting someone that could do vertical story, know, vertical stories editor, right, which is now, you know, for some people, some roles. So you're at the Ravens in that new

you know, were, you know, while west of the web, that early web era, and that early, early social era, and then you end up going back to Washington, what was the role that you went back to, to Washington for?

Jen Hinkle (06:22.783)
to run their e-commerce platform, as well as their website. So I think the Redskins made an interesting move prior to me joining them, where they really turned their website into a TV screen, basically. They were one of the first to really go all in on video, leveraging a lot of their studio shows. This is before really you thought about the different ways people consume on web versus

on their big screen. you know, we had a lot to do with that, but then also the e-commerce piece at the time we were running all of our retail, we had 14 brick and mortar stores and a website. they put me in charge of a lot of things in retail that were interesting. We were coming up with all kinds of different deals and special offers and figuring out ways to position all the merchandise.

when we ended up outsourcing the merch to a third party, someone that could really handle all of the brick and mortar as well, is when they kind of evolved me into building more or less platforms. I got tricked into building a kids club. I thought I was building a website, like a portal on our website for kids. And the next thing I know, I was running scavenger hunts and the full membership program and all the things that came with it.

I think that was actually a really interesting time, the digital revolution, where a lot of the brands were then looking for new ways to not just have the sign in the stadium, but they really wanted the digital component that just got them more visibility than those 10 games a year. So that was exciting to get to build some new platforms for the sponsorship team to sell against and fan affinity programs to be able to again capture.

new fans, young fans, more casual fans and bring them into our universe.

Sean Callanan (08:19.65)
So even though it was still early, you're on the bleeding edge for all of these things. Early web, running e-commerce and bringing people from bricks and mortar to the website way before it becomes, like all of these things are the norm now. Did you find, it a bit of that we're flying the plane but we're still building it that you and the team had to do? there wasn't Shopify out there, it was just a plugin and you just work like it was all.

relatively new.

Jen Hinkle (08:50.709)
It was, it made it really fun, but we worked with so many different third party vendors at the time. That's actually what helped me build a lot of my relationships early on. We, sports teams don't always have the largest budgets and a lot of these startup companies were looking to just align with a big name and prove their product out. We were.

definitely early adopters in those spaces with some of the treatable bits and zoom for the world that have now evolved their platforms into much bigger product offerings than they started with as well. But I really enjoyed it because we had the runway to be able to really try new things, be innovative, barring that the NFL started coming in and cracking down on a lot of the rules of what we could and couldn't do. were.

I think one of the last leagues to allow teams to have their own Facebook pages and, you know, they saw the big picture of being able to monetize across all 32. So a lot of red tape in place. So there was a lot of getting creative to be able to innovate while still playing by the rules a little bit.

Sean Callanan (10:00.802)
I think that piece too that you were talking about, I guess the nimbleness of being able to work with partners that are on the the uprise and on the way up. Because there's a lot of vendors out there that will sell, you know, the silver bullet, this will fix everything, but it does need you to work. can't just go, thank you, we're going to plug your tool in, it's going to work for us. Like you actually like working the tool, giving valuable feedback to people like TraderWitts and Zoom. So their product can level up.

Like if they don't get that feedback, their product doesn't work. Was that really important for you to say, hey, we need this tool. We really wanna help make it the best tool that could be.

Jen Hinkle (10:38.047)
Yeah, I think that was always frustrating with a lot of vendors. They'd come in and usually try to pitch my boss on this tool. And then they made it sound like it was completely plug and play when you do actually need a body and a thinker behind the strategy and how you're really going to execute. And I think we were very lucky with early partners that were in it with us and figuring out how they can make it better. I think it also helps scalability rate when more teams came on board.

teams from other leagues, you were just thinking about things a little bit differently. I don't think anyone's above stealing another idea. We were always trying to be first to market with things, but if it worked in another market, it was not typically who we were competing with. We were competing with the other teams in our market. So I think that made it exciting. think some of the partners that got on board early to help finance some of these products too.

They were also looking to be more innovative and cutting edge and got to do some really interesting projects with Anheuser-Busch was one of the first ones that decided to really step into it. We built a social lounge at FedEx Field, which was really meant to solve our ingress problems and try to get people in the building early. For them, we launched all these cool AR, VR tools and

Fans are really excited about putting on the helmet and getting the experience coming out of the tunnel and off the bus. felt making themselves their own bobblehead. But at the end of the day, when we went to the AD meetings, we were asked, well, how much bearded do you sell? Right? So it all still comes back to their business model. you know, I think, again, I think a lot of these tools have Zoom's is a perfect example. They started out with just.

Sean Callanan (12:14.157)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (12:25.121)
the social feed that you put up on your Jumbotron in the stadium. And now they're one of the strongest data platforms out there from a true analytics standpoint and measuring sponsorship ROI. they still have some of those other tools that they had at the beginning, but it's a completely different product based off, I think what they saw as the biggest opportunity that teams needed to report back on.

Sean Callanan (12:53.582)
Absolutely. Shout out to Amir, a big friend of the show for everything he's done with Soof. So you obviously had a varied role in Washington, you know, jumping from, you know, different projects. it, was there a specific remit? it, because it just sounds like you were, you know, Commissioner of Special Projects with all these exciting things like, but was that a, like a wider remit overall in your time? Or did you, you know, change roles effectively around some of those projects?

Jen Hinkle (13:21.479)
No, they just kind of kept adding to my plate. And with that, I was able to advocate for a little bit of extra help, but it was tough to do in those times. think, you know, no one really knew what the future of social was. It was hard to justify, like, really investing in some of those platforms. We had an enormous waitlist, which meant we had a database that we wanted to be savvier with in the email space. But the flip side of working for a legacy brand like that,

was that we truly didn't have a marketing department as it's probably defined now. It was digital led and run. There wasn't a need for awareness marketing and everyone knew who this team was, good, bad and ugly. But they had these fans that just stuck with us and we were always looking to grow that database, but not necessarily doing anything with grassroots marketing or

some of the other traditional marketing channels. So really with the platforms that we built, we started adding some people as we saw a lot of growth. We built one of the largest women's clubs at the time, which again was really focused on lead generation, but also got to bring on a full-time person to truly focus on that. And that was achievement based off her efforts to make that what it was. But I think,

Again, like our partnership team had lofty revenue goals. And so they were always looking to align with these new brands and figuring out who they wanted to align with and what we could build beyond just this. We were kind of sold out of all the assets that were in our stadium and the more traditional assets even online. So, you know, it was kind of a fun, innovative project to just come up with more.

It was always the challenge to get the head count to help do it right. So as it goes in sports.

Sean Callanan (15:23.278)
I mean, that's it. mean, no, exactly. But they're the success stories I'd love to hear of, you know, your traditional sponsorship things, your traditional inventory is starting to get sold out. And that's when, you know, the commercial folk, they sort of just start sidling over and coming over and saying, Hey, Jim, what else can we sell? And then that's when it gets into a really exciting space. You know, and that's when you can do things with specific segments like a women's club or, you know, a kids club or, or, or how can you extend the experience of something

in the stadium was that was sort of where you started working more, I guess, closely in lockstep and trying to understand that commercial side to say, hey, we're to build things that the commercial team, the sponsorship team can use.

Jen Hinkle (16:04.437)
Yeah, I mean, it was just you didn't want to be in a place where you were a cost center. the best way to, and with limited budget, was, you needed an ally in that space that someone with real dollars come in the table. So they were always pretty good about carving out a portion of our deals to support the activation side of it, whether it was something event-based or digital. So.

we got, it was, it was a smart place to play. And as, as if you could show that ROI, you you've got a much better chance of keeping your job and, and getting to do the next new project. You know, I've been in other places where when marketing starts to become such a cost center and there are so many channels in marketing specifically in advertising that aren't quite as measurable as, as digital say. So it starts to, you spend more time justifying your spends and

All of a sudden, you're the first in line to get the axe on your budget. So, you know, I think that was probably a really positive experience for me just seeing how brands were looking at valuing their relationships and partnerships with the team and figuring out ways to really retain them by being offering, giving them new offerings and making sure that we were delivering on what we said we were going to do with through measurement, but also saying, hey, this wasn't maybe working just

like we thought it was, let's try to evolve it to something bigger and better for everybody.

Sean Callanan (17:35.766)
And I've been lucky enough to speak to a bunch of people that are in the NFL space. And like you said, they're some of them don't need the marketing. You've got this big, huge brand, great heritage in the market. But you've also still got to market, you know, all of these home games and they're, they're like major, major events. What is it like, you know, one, trying to market a game, whether you've got a, you know, a big ticketing goal, which you might have, because it might be a full stadium, but like you still got to market these

these big home games. What's that like from getting your team right and prepped and ready for it to market it, but then also to cover it.

Jen Hinkle (18:13.919)
Yeah, I think it all really evolved into storytelling. So whether it was the rivalry between the other opponent or a milestone that maybe a player was going to reach, I think the NFL did a great job of really implementing all of these different initiatives throughout the season. So you have your military appreciation night and your breast cancer awareness night. And so really figuring out the community ties into the match and pulling on some of those emotional strings.

I think we found that a lot through our women's club too, is a lot of times women were more casual fans and in fairness, there's plenty of huge sports fans like myself that they didn't want to be talked to in the football 101 way, right? But they wanted to be part of something or they wanted to bring their daughters and make them be part of it. And I think we just look for opportunities to, to storytell, connect with fans differently. And we always call that the helmet off content because football is kind of that unique sport where

You don't see a lot of the faces. You could walk down the street. It's not like the NBA where everyone's hugely tall. You could not recognize these players sometimes unless they were the face of the franchise. And they all came with really interesting backgrounds and connections to whether it through family and military or just hometown favorites. So we worked a lot on.

on those pieces to try to get people out. think the other thing is that for a while, I think teams got a little bit complacent. So we didn't need the marketing, but at the same time, interestingly enough, we're all still talking about how we're competing with that at home experience. It's gotten so great. There is no better way to watch a game than in a stadium in my personal opinion, but you still have to remind people of that sometimes since it ends up being such often

It's a huge commitment, right? Financially and time wise. So how do you remind people that how great it is to be there live with your other fans and.

Sean Callanan (20:23.406)
Absolutely. mean, and the thing is, is, it becomes, you know, what's your generational marketing? You know, you've got, you know, all your over, over forties, over fifties that are attending that have been long time season ticket holders. If you're not marketing to that next generation to come to a game, which is, know, why the stadiums are evolving and the offerings are evolving. So they might come to our game. You know, you're sort of marketing for your 10 to 15 years down the track when, you know, you're going to have to replace those fans and you're going to have to have that next

next piece and I think it's that piece of how we marketing to different demographics, it's diverse groups that are in the area and getting them involved or finding new fans. But also, yeah, just reminding people that it's amazing at the stadium and that FOMO experience, I have to be there, that's a big part of what the Digi teams have to do.

Jen Hinkle (21:14.421)
Yeah, and fantasy football really changed the next generation, right? It became much more player following than team following. So that gets really tricky in the business when you're trading players around and you can't just, you saw less and less of the player that stuck their whole career out with the same team, right? So it.

It's definitely an interesting landscape of keeping the attention and really building that fandom. I do think the generational piece has changed a lot too. Actually, when we were in Tennessee, we didn't have digital ticketing at the time, and this is 2019. We knew that our fan base was older, but did we? We had no idea who was actually coming in the building. I'm like, well, we don't know if mom and dad are giving them to their kids at this point or…

Sean Callanan (21:54.883)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Hinkle (22:06.411)
Grandparents tickets are getting handed down. So I think that's definitely our team's a little bit more figuring out who's in the building and what exactly they're doing in the building. And when are they coming in and are they buying a, know, concessions or shopping retail or just going straight to their seats.

Sean Callanan (22:25.228)
mean, it's fascinating that that data, as an industry, we're only starting to get that data as probably one of the only things of thank you from COVID that we did move to digital tickets and we could track people a little bit. yeah, I mean, yeah, 10 years ago, the tickets were the paper tickets or the hand and you didn't know who was in the seat.

Jen Hinkle (22:30.785)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (22:35.274)
I know.

Jen Hinkle (22:47.093)
Yeah, not at all. I think that is definitely a positive of COVID. It forced a lot of hands on, you know, a lot of season ticket members that had been around for a long time, they collected their paper tickets and no one wanted to move away from that. That helped really rip the bandaid off real quick. So here we are.

Sean Callanan (22:59.694)
Stubs. Yep.

Sean Callanan (23:07.534)
Yeah. And then I think that the other thing you sort of talked about how fantasy has changed fandom in a little bit, like, you know, the US sort of went from traditional fantasy to the daily fantasy that was a precursor to gambling. You know, and now you've got gambling that's been opening up state by state and getting different. It is changing the fandom because people are following up, you know, a player for a single game parlay or for their fantasy. How does that change it from you from a marketer point of view, knowing that

Previously you would promote and it would be all about the team and be part of the team and be part of the tribe. But you're now also talking to fans that potentially are just following your team because you did secure that player or they're just following because of know, star QB.

Jen Hinkle (23:54.377)
It all kind of depends on your front office. There's definitely some old school coaches and some that have embraced that. I think most really still want to stick with that team mentality and not have that one star player, but it takes a lot of convincing sometimes to let them know. Like we know that on the field it's one team, but from a marketing sense, if this is the most recognizable faith, I'm going to put Derek Henry on everything, right?

Sean Callanan (24:22.274)
Yep. Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (24:24.441)
I think it was a good balance. think there's usually always a young up and coming player that people don't know about so that you're able to kind of balance that stock. then again, some of the NFLPA rules even force us to have more group marketing efforts that I think help us not just focus on the star players at the time. you you've injuries, everything else that's just possible to happen. Putting all your eggs in that one basket is

never the smartest movie, even if it feels like the easiest one to connect with. And by the way, the players sometimes get, you know, they don't want to be asked to do the social media content series, the same guys over and over. It's usually some of the ones that maybe don't have as much pressure on them to perform that are willing to raise their hand. So I think it's just, again, an opportunity to introduce people to the team differently or to the fans differently and get to know them a little bit better and hope that maybe

We'll be looking at them as the star player a few years from now.

Sean Callanan (25:26.126)
Absolutely. is a lot of navigating of a lot of different, I guess, rules and preferences and who wants to do stuff on what ends up. I still find it fascinating. It's not an NFL thing. It is a cross-sport things how sometimes the head coach and their philosophy can really just push all the way through an organization of, this is the way, we don't do that type of content or we don't tell those types of stories.

You hear different ones for different coaches that can really just, they're both running the locker room and to a certain degree they run, know, put these caveats on everything else that's going out for the business.

Jen Hinkle (26:06.017)
Yes, I remember my good friends at the Patriots having the least amount of access you could possibly imagine to the players, yet they still managed to figure out ways to get it done. But I think some of those, and there are all these coaching trees, and I agree with you, it's not just football, but so it's kind of what you came up with and learned that you might implement in your next place. I was…

with five different head coaches in Washington and they were all arranged from the Joe Gibbs era of super old school to, you know, the Z-Man, Jim Zorn that was, you know, all out there and attending kids' club events.

Sean Callanan (26:48.194)
Yeah, absolutely. So you did mention there we mentioned that you you were you did go from the from Washington to the to the Titans. What was some of the differences moving, moving to the the Titans and as a different market?

Jen Hinkle (27:03.361)
As an organization, night and day, I think the Titans were in a really interesting spot. They had lost the market to the National Preds, the hockey team, which I thought was super interesting with it being in SEC football territory. mean, football is usually predominant in the South, but the Preds had done a really great job coming in, rebranding.

and making everyone told me you got to go to a press game, you got to go to, it's so exciting, it's great. And then I did, I was like, I got to see what this is all about. And some of the stuff in that building is so organic, it's very hard to replicate. But, you know, I saw this as an opportunity, Tennessee had been behind in a lot of the digital evolution sponsorship for sure, they weren't generating revenue like I was accustomed to having to do in Washington. So when

tough the opportunity, was a great chance to really build, rebuild the brand that was, when they moved the team to Tennessee, they had success right away going to the Super Bowl. And I think that is a little bit troublesome for fans where they're like, that's expectation every year when it's not easy to do. it was fun to really rebuild the excitement in Tennessee. Granted, I…

Sean Callanan (28:14.893)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (28:25.215)
I can't take full credit having Derek Henry on the team, right? So the team actually ended up being really good while I was there too, but we just saw that as opportunity to double down. mean, when your team's doing well, that's when you've got to like really work harder to make sure that those people aren't going to just leave you in the, you know, it's inevitable in sports, the ebbs and flows of greatness. So wanting to make sure that we would be able to build something that was sustainable.

I think one of the more exciting projects and this all kind of again was timing, but influencer marketing became a big thing while I was there and Nashville probably has more influencers, whether it's the micro macro bloggers to A-list celebs that we were very focused on tapping in on. Nate Bargatze was one of the first people I met there. He's a huge comedian now. At the time he was really just up and coming and I thought he was

Sean Callanan (29:20.642)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (29:24.095)
a good guy and we were hoping he would take off. Now he's getting ready to do some really big projects with the Titans. So I think that market is primed for it. Nate Bain runs their social there. He's done a phenomenal job carrying on his relationships with Jelly Roll, who same thing, started off kind of small, exploded, and now he's in that Titans landscape. So it makes it a little bit easier, I think, for them as they're moving into their new stadium and trying to get

fans in, they've got big names out there telling their stories and talking about how great the franchise is to work with.

Sean Callanan (30:02.254)
Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel that influence the space, you know, so you're not in that pay to play. But like, if you find out that influencer is a fan of your team, it's like, how, how can we work together? And, and yeah, if you're getting the right ones as they're on the rise up, they're like, Oh, you know, Nate, Jelly Roll, Oh, they're just Titans fans. And then it's just locked in. And, and so it becomes beneficial for both. That's sort of how you, how you want that influence, influence, influence relationship to be.

Jen Hinkle (30:30.739)
Yeah, it feels super organic that way because truly we're invested in each other at that point. And you just never know. think each market's a little bit different with, Nashville is just a hot spot for it. So it made a lot of sense for us to truly invest in that space. I mean, there's some, in Houston, you see a lot of this where there's influencers on different levels, right? They've got huge followings because they're telling people what to do with your kids in Houston.

versus the A-list celeb that just has a different type of brand recognition and both are very valuable, I think to the clubs and one of our models is always to make sure that they had a great experience at the game so that they didn't even have to be asked to talk about it, that they naturally would want to share on their own channel.

Sean Callanan (31:24.078)
So you had long career, 18 years in NFL teams, and you moved out of the world of sport into agency land and sort of other projects outside of sport. How was it like getting out of the sports bubble for a short period?

Jen Hinkle (31:40.465)
It put me into sheer shock. I'm not sure what happened there, but I started out working on some sports startup stuff. And then when I joined an agency full-time, we had clients ranging from higher ed to senior living to whiskey and wine, zero sports. So I think they always kind of wanted to align with a sports club. I think it takes a really special agency to get in bed with a team.

It was, gave me a really good opportunity to go a lot deeper on paid media side of things. And again, that was something that we had invested a lot in in Tennessee, but still didn't have to do quite as much as a smaller brand that used all of that. So it was an interesting opportunity to lead the team there and build out their paid media department. But

Sean Callanan (32:28.525)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (32:39.169)
when they recruited me back into sports, was like, oh my gosh, I just got out of this. have like my fall's free, my summer, you know, can, a lot of flexibility, but it's always too tempting because sports is so fun. got pulled right back in.

Sean Callanan (32:53.036)
Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I, you know, I talked to people at times where there's when they're saying they're in the grind of sports and they're thinking, you know, they're looking over the fence and thinking, I'll go into corporate or I'll or I'll do other things. It like you do realize, you know, you don't have a Derek Henry, you know, three touchdown game to get all your customers really excited. You know, if you're trying to really test your skills and and really sharpens your game from a marketer point of view, when you've got to, you know, get that targeting right, follow that

version acquisition piece? Did you find that to sort of sort of like, I guess, yeah, really, like learn the tools and deeper knowledge of, of, of, you know, the digital marketing piece where you didn't have the, like I said, the big brand and the sport and the fandom behind you.

Jen Hinkle (33:39.585)
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of that. think each, it's funny because marketing is marketing is marketing, right? It's just how you execute it based off of what your goals and strategies are. I think having that wider breadth of client exposed me to more channels that were out there. I think it gave us all a little bit, we all had to work a little bit harder.

We worked very closely with our creative team on actually creating ads, first using a lot of organic content as kind of ads. But I found it to be a very valuable experience. And it was even weirder because then I really became a free agent for which team I wanted to cheer for. And I was a little lost there too. I'm like, I kind of cheer for the home team still, but grew up in Washington. Do I go back there? What do I do?

So I little lost at the time. I ended up hopping on the jet span wagon in case, that's a story for another podcast probably. But yeah, I think it was also a little bit of karma for me having managed the agency relationships back in Washington specifically, knowing what agencies go through with clients and how sometimes the whole lot of work ends up just not happening or going into the trashcan.

There's a little bit of a payback, I think, there.

Sean Callanan (35:08.514)
Yeah, but it also, I mean, like that's the experience from Washington, working with agencies and working with brands and trying to get results for brands is completely transferable when you're on the agency side, because you've, you've seen it from, know, from the from the brand side. So like that, when people are saying, you know, I'm working over here, I can't work in sports or vice versa, like there's so many transferable skills to go from, you know, multiple different sports or multiple different industries. Because like I said, is marketing.

and you just learn to apply the tools best for the client you're working for.

Jen Hinkle (35:44.065)
And we're seeing so much more of that in sports where they're looking for fresh ideas, they're looking for outside perspective and vice versa. I think a lot of vendors have started hiring sports people who worked on the team side to truly understand what that business is like and what the sales cycle should be and how to best provide products. So I don't know, I'm of the mindset that no matter what role you're in,

You should be able to gain some kind of knowledge, advance your skill set, and it's applicable anywhere. And some things don't job-wise. You might leave a little something behind, but that experience still helps you, I think, understand the full landscape as you start to grow your career.

Sean Callanan (36:34.764)
And like you said, the the fun of sport dragged you back in with a role with the Houston Dynamo and Houston Dash in the MLS and the NWSL. So going from the NFL to the world of soccer or football is as most people around the world will call it. What was it? What was some of the differences going? Now, exactly. Once you get into the into the sport, they'll go No, we call it football. But you know, we know it's a contention swear. But what

Jen Hinkle (36:52.257)
The real football I was told I signed up for.

Sean Callanan (37:03.074)
What was it like going into the world of soccer?

Jen Hinkle (37:09.581)
It was really interesting. mean, they seemed ready to pull someone in from say the NFL has just gotten bigger. Soccer, MLS is 30 years old in the country and they're still trying to figure out how to really break through. And I think they're starting to make some hard decisions about whether they want to be a professional sports league in the United States or if they want to be an international football league.

and align better with those schedules. And I think it's interesting how it's grown. It's obviously there's a lot more transactions happening with international players and there's a tremendous amount of interest. I think with the World Cup coming to US and Olympics happening in 28, I mean, this is the time where I think MLS has the biggest opportunity to grow. The same time when I was like, I think I'm kind of done with the team side. And then I got not one team, but two.

the women's side is exploding with Caitlin Clark effect and a lot of investors and coming in and wanting to purchase women's sports franchises and build them into what they should be. I think, you know, even from a the US national team, the women have had a lot of success. There's a lot of eyes on them. People recognize a lot of the players, so they both had an interesting set of challenges.

Sean Callanan (38:08.236)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (38:36.991)
Dynamo or a legacy brand when they came in they went back-to-back MLS cups There was a lot of excitement around them over the course of time. They became less of the shiny new toy in town, right and so just an overall need for to bring them back and and rejuvenate the brand and remind people in a great sports town like Houston that soccer's here and I got a lot of questions about when's the season, you know, people just don't know everyone knows when opening day is in baseball and when

Sean Callanan (39:04.259)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (39:07.137)
Uh, you know, the Texans are going to kick, kick off, but this is something I think we had to really kind of reeducate fans. Um, this is also back to what we were talking about, like latching onto a specific player. There's so much movement in soccer. I was not accustomed to that. And there was players that we would put out there and market and build up. And I unbeknownst to me, we were doing it to build their value and in an effort to make a transaction. So that was like, wait, what? I just put them on all those.

collateral, but I think and then for the women, it's beyond awareness. mean, I think it's they're really starting. It's like a startup team. Their players are phenomenal. The women are super interested in building their own brands and getting people to come enjoy the sport. So just kind of night and day between the two different teams in general. I think it was

Definitely a challenge splitting time and resources of my team across both of them and trying to figure out how to balance the schedules of both. It makes for a very, very long season, but I think there is a lot of upside to what they were looking to build in Houston.

Sean Callanan (40:25.666)
Yeah, I wanted to ask you specifically about the dash because it would have been the first time that you would have had a women's team under your, your remit for so long. Was it was it something from your point of view to look at it? Because there's a lot of, I guess, sports marketers or at least leagues that go, we've now got a women's league, and it's a cookie cutter approach. And we're just taking a version of what we've done over here and doing it over doing it over there. That has failed.

How did you tackle it as a challenge to go give women sports and give the dash their rightful place, understand their market and their fans are completely different? Because it's not as just a matter of, it's just another team because like, you know, the fandom, the way it's consumed, the types of fans is completely different. How did you tackle that challenge, I guess that opportunity?

Jen Hinkle (41:17.105)
The first thing we really wanted to do was a fan segmentation study because we just had no idea who was coming in the building. We could make some guesses based off what you were seeing, but it was just really hard to understand it. think that was something we worked very hard to do was truly separating the two brands. It's like the Astros and the Dynamo, they're just two separate

teams and brands. And so we wanted to make sure we weren't just speaking to people in the same way. I think we found really in the market, it's 7 million people in Houston, right? And it's got, it's the most diverse market in the US, which I learned when I moved here, makes it gives us a lot of opportunity. were like, should we be chasing down the Nigerian market? Cause we have this amazing Nigerian player here.

or what's the best bang for our buck? We've obviously got a huge Hispanic market. Are those the people really seeing in the building? The LGBTQ plus community is huge for the dash, but then you're also seeing families, just like you saw on the Dynamo side, both fathers and families, fathers bringing their daughters to games. And so it wasn't just family outings. So we were…

quick to tap into the players themselves, figuring out what they're, they were looking for. I think they wanted the games to be more of a party atmosphere. And while we were chasing down the families, which I still think is super important, we're like, how do we make it more fun to come out to a match and just get to know these girls and what they're doing out there? think they were all super willing to participate in all of our community efforts, youth soccer programs.

fun night out, bingo nights out at the local sports bar to try to build the awareness again for their own brands. There also, we had a lot more success with them on social, willingness to participate in some of the fun, more lighthearted content. All the while, we were still able to capture the stuff for the hardcore fans with the on-field action. We were very fortunate to have Jane Campbell, who was

Jen Hinkle (43:33.685)
part of the US Women's National Team at the Olympics and a few other international players just trying to figure out how to top into those brands. it's kind of like any other thing. You're just trying to figure out who the audience is, who's most likely to want to come check this out. And hopefully, the NWSL will start getting a little bit more organized from a league perspective. think there's…

still figuring out how to slot in matches in between the MLS teams or where they're playing that makes more sense. Kansas City is obviously a great model where they built an appropriate sized stadium and they could actually fill it and got the right level of investment. You look at the Washington Spirit with their owner that has invested across many other women's sports. And I think that's really what you need at the top there. It's not…

It's not a quick revenue builder in women's sports, but think the long-term play is definitely there. The interest is definitely there.

Sean Callanan (44:36.622)
Absolutely, absolutely. And you're seeing that trend across multiple sports. One thing that you've obviously done throughout your career is continue to learn and continue to look at what's the latest. For a long time, you've been on that bleeding edge, which has its excitement and has its pitfalls. We obviously met at SEAT many years ago and it's a big part of how we want to connect, but also stay on top of trends. were in Nashville last month. What were some of your…

key takeaways from either the sessions or conversations you had with people at sea.

Jen Hinkle (45:13.049)
AI is the most obvious. People are still figuring out how to use it, how to use it in an ethical manner. I think it's kind of like the tools that we talked about back in the day. You still need the people, you still need the prompts, but when is someone going to actually add maybe an AI expert to their staff to figure some of this stuff out? The tools are obviously still new and evolving, but

I don't see that how that won't play a part in everyone's marketing strategy moving forward. Funny because I think my first seed, can't remember what year it was, but I did a panel talking about email marketing, which really dates, now we're talking about AI. You know, and also in seed, it's still.

Sean Callanan (45:57.022)
But that's the thing though, like we also when we have the roundtables, one of the big discussion was still email because it's still super effective. get you know, it's not I mean, it's driven by the algorithm of the size of your inbox, but like it still gets delivered. And it's still you know, sells tickets, ticks a lot of boxes. But it's like, how do we get that over? You know, non overwhelm, correct. So yeah, I agree with you, like obviously spoke about AI, but like, you still end up

Jen Hinkle (46:07.637)
Yes.

Sean Callanan (46:25.504)
having a conversation of how many EDMs do you send a week and how do you stop your partner team asking for another EDM or your ticketing team? So those conversations still happen.

Jen Hinkle (46:37.697)
funny because we've been talking all these years just about the fan journey and how to be more personalized, more targeted. What we're doing with all this data that we're collecting halfway through a lot of this, when Facebook pulled out so much of the data we were getting for targeting, we had to quickly figure out, how can we collect some of that information in different ways? again, with a lot of teams having slim resources, it's not always…

you could come up with a great plan where everyone's getting a super personalized email, but it's not always super easy to execute. So just being more strategic on that front, think that's gonna help. I didn't know it was a lot of the other stuff, just we're still talking about how to improve that fan engagement piece, what we're doing to reach new fans, what we're doing to, I don't know about you, but at first when your phone was listening,

freaked me out a lot. Now I'm like, I'm expecting it to listen. I'm like, where are my tips for my trip to Bali? Like I told you I'm going, like, you know? And I think that's the expectation is just going to continue to change with the personalization piece. And a lot of it comes in email, right? And the volume of email is still a question. You know, there's some brands that I probably get an email from them every day. Have I hit the unsubscribe button? No. But, you know, I think

Sean Callanan (47:38.626)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (48:01.929)
you know, how we're still using the messaging in those emails and how we're speaking to different audiences differently is going to be important, I think, as going to be a strong tool to help us do some of that.

Sean Callanan (48:15.401)
Absolutely. Yeah. And if you're a marketer, you don't have to subscribe because you want to keep seeing what they send you, whether it's good, bad or otherwise. And so it's a it's a it's a curse. You don't don't unsubscribe. You obviously mean someone that's always looked for those new solutions and innovation, but also execute. How do you as a leader, late foster team building to develop that same sort of inquisitiveness, but also innovation and execution in your team?

Jen Hinkle (48:20.415)
I know, I can't resist.

Jen Hinkle (48:44.521)
You know, it's definitely a different generation. There's a lot more boundaries being put up. I sports is traditionally, you know, they're not traditional hours, right? So I think for us, like getting some small wins and I just talked to a group the other day where, you know, budget is always a problem. So they're basically always being told no. And I think from my days in Washington where I had to get really creative, you know, I think enabling the team to sit in a brainstorm and figure out

the solutions instead of, they're not gonna let us do that, is part of it. And I think as people start seeing maybe not everything happening, seeing some things happening makes them happy. And I took the approach specifically in Houston, I said, you it looked like we were trying to boil the ocean in this huge market. And I'm like, why don't we pick a couple things and knock them out of the park and do a really, really killer instead of trying to spread ourselves so thin.

which was really burning out the staff in general. So started running planning sessions and brainstorm sessions cross-departmentally. I think that's super important too. The kid on ops has just as many ideas as the person in your creative department. So trying to foster idea sharing and then figuring out how to launch the pieces. And if there is a good idea, but we're like, okay, that's just, we don't have enough runway to get it done or let's table it.

so that we can work on that for later in the season or next year. And I think last year we had a couple initiatives that we started building kind of this platform around. And so this year when we got the group together, we looked back at what we did and said, okay, how are we gonna make this bigger and better? What were some of the things that we tabled last year that maybe we've actually got the time and energy to commit to? So I think sometimes it's being picky about

know, or prioritizing really what's going to be have the most impact and how your team's going to feel fulfilled after the launch of said initiative.

Sean Callanan (50:50.062)
Absolutely. I want to sort of go back to your initial advice of saying you weren't in you did you weren't in sales and you weren't going to go in sales, but really your whole career is all been about finding solutions that you can sell to someone that gets a green light. So, you know, if you're in that solution focus being able to say, Hey, I want to do something. If you can, you know, if you can sell it, if you can sell that dream and sell that solution and your right size, like you said, make it a small project so it can be done so you can have those wins.

It's something you just have to learn as a skill to be able to say, well, this is what we want to do and this is why, and this is why it'll work and this is what we'll learn. You can get some of those small wins.

Jen Hinkle (51:28.897)
think the why is always important. A lot of times you're asked to do something, like build a kids page on the website without knowing the why. And when you understand the why, you can get more contributors in on like what might work better than maybe what you're being asked to do. Or, you know, maybe it's the best idea out there and you need to figure out how to execute it to the best of your ability. But I'm a big fan of communicating and pulling as many people in as possible to.

to collaborate early so that we all kind of know what the end goal is. So you're not just being asked to generate a bunch of emails or build website things or launch social campaigns without knowing why we're doing what we're doing.

Sean Callanan (52:13.134)
Absolutely. Well, as we're talking here, you are currently a free agent. You finished up at Houston and looking for a next role. What kind of role are you looking for as you start looking at what your next step is?

Jen Hinkle (52:27.775)
Yeah, I enjoy the build or really the building on. So I'm excited to work with a group that's looking to innovate, figure out some of these new tools that can help us capture success. think I've seen a lot of what you're talking about of the brand side super compelling. I've seen it from the team side. I know what the most valuable assets are.

So figuring out from the brand side, like how to really bring those things to life. And I think that's evolved immensely over the last decade, but it's always interesting to see when like a brand does something really out of the box with a team versus some of the things that are, and if it's working, let it keep working. I think it always comes kind of from the top of how much leeway you're gonna have to get creative and innovative. And I think…

Culture is something a lot of sports teams are, have maybe been a little behind on. And I know that that's a big deal for a lot of programs trying to move the team in the right direction. And I think when the team feels valued and feels like they can innovate and create, that's usually a solid environment to do great things in.

Sean Callanan (53:45.974)
Absolutely. It's like when you do get the best results, because that's the people striving to do the stuff they want to do. That's why they got into the first place. Even if it was a misconception that, working in sports is fun, it is. But there's also this hard work and creative and time pressure, all of these other things that make it very unique. It's really important to get your team working on that one page to get those successes.

Jen Hinkle (53:57.353)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (54:16.289)
Absolutely.

Sean Callanan (54:18.252)
Well, Jen, really do appreciate you coming on the podcast. I have been chasing you for a long while to be on the podcast. For those of you who don't see me at seat, occasionally I'll just pop up and be asking people and yeah, probably would have been three or four seats in a row that I said, Jen, this is the year. So thank you for coming on. I want to get to the sports gear closing five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?

Jen Hinkle (54:23.219)
You

Jen Hinkle (54:42.091)
would have been likely the San Diego Padres game. My dad was Navy, we were stationed out there. It's probably more memorable because my mom still talks about it being the most expensive experience of our lives, but where we spent more on, they spent more on concessions for my brother and I. We were probably five years old at the time. I think we ate our way through the game. But certainly a memorable experience.

Sean Callanan (55:04.264)
well, luckily, absolutely. And just tell your mom that she's there. Be thankful for the generation that you were born in because it would be a lot more expensive these days. And then that probably leads to my second question, which is, know, do you have a favorite food memory or a go to food at a sports event?

Jen Hinkle (55:15.068)
Yeah.

Jen Hinkle (55:23.723)
Academy the glizzy. mean nothing better than a hot dog in a stadium. I don't think I've ever had one outside of a stadium short of maybe my mother's boiled hot dogs growing up, but.

Sean Callanan (55:34.734)
What's the first app you open in the morning?

Jen Hinkle (55:39.521)
It's usually the New York time to do my wordle and catch a glimpse of what's happening in the world shortly to follow Instagram.

Sean Callanan (55:50.614)
And what's your what's your word or streak? Have you got a is the streak alive?

Jen Hinkle (55:55.009)
I'm 97 days strong, so trying to hit 100, feel a little addicted. The other night I'd forgotten.

Sean Callanan (55:58.034)
well, by the time they said I will check in before I publish this episode to make sure you've got three more days, make sure you get to 100. By the time you listen this will have known you've got to 100. Is there someone that you follow might be a colleague, it might be someone on on Twitter that the listeners should follow and why?

Jen Hinkle (56:03.893)
Ha!

Jen Hinkle (56:20.449)
I follow lot of more fun, lighthearted. I think the internet is undefeated in some of the memes out there. I will say that I've been paying a lot of attention to Big Ellie, Ellie the Elephant from the Liberty. I think what they're doing with her brand and it's truly what she's doing on social is incredible. It's entertaining and kudos to them for taking.

her to the next level, it's bringing a lot of awareness to the Liberty as well.

Sean Callanan (56:52.546)
Yeah, that mascot marketing effort and social and what it should do and how much effort is too much effort and are you going to get reward is something that lot of different teams have tried to say, hey, what should we do in that space? And like, when you get it right and it, like you said, that it cuts through and connects with both their fans, you know, the intended audience and then that wider audience is amazing. So I'm sure there'll be a bunch of people trying their best to, you know, steal with pride and take the best of Ellie.

to their own mascots, but it's really hard to execute, isn't it?

Jen Hinkle (57:25.823)
Yeah, mean, kudos to them because I think it's really hard. Obviously, a lot of things have to align for that to work out. I think even what they're doing with her brand can actually resonate with other teams. Just some of the content that they're trying and visibility and access that she's getting helps with all of that.

Sean Callanan (57:49.75)
Absolutely. And the last question I ask is, and you can answer this personally, and then you can potentially put one of your team hats on and say which one. So what social media platform is your MVP?

Jen Hinkle (58:01.173)
Mine's Instagram because it's become so versatile. It's amazing how it started being a photo platform, which I thought was super compelling. It helped us get a full-time photographer in Washington. Now we've got reels and threads and all the other things that are feeding into it. think it's tough with teens now. They're having to really strategize how they're feeding the beast, but it's still my favorite platform.

Sean Callanan (58:12.365)
Yep.

Jen Hinkle (58:30.868)
across the board.

Sean Callanan (58:32.704)
Absolutely. It does get the top votes a lot of the time when I ask that question to people. Jen, really do appreciate you coming on the podcast. I always ask people to reach out and say thank you. If they do, what's the best way for someone to reach out to you to say thank you or potentially send you a sneaky job offer?

Jen Hinkle (58:54.945)
LinkedIn. I check my LinkedIn quite a bit these days. So I'm on there and I appreciate you having me on. It was long overdue indeed. So this has always been fun.

Sean Callanan (59:07.982)
Well, I appreciate it was good to see you in Nashville. And if you if you've got some time, you're always welcome to come down to Australia sometime. So if you want to come down, make the trek and either go to a footy match or maybe go to the Australian Open, you're more than welcome to come down.

Jen Hinkle (59:22.537)
I will make it down there. So don't tempt me with a good time.

Sean Callanan (59:26.316)
All right, absolutely. Thanks, Gene.

Jen Hinkle (59:30.017)
Thanks, Sean.