Creating meaningful partnerships that deliver – Ben Hirschfeld, Cricket NSW

This transcript has been transcribed by Riverside.fm, no edits (please excuse any errors)

Sean (00:01.41)
Very happy to welcome Ben Hirschfeld. He's the Chief Commercial Officer at Cricket NSW. Ben, welcome to the podcast.

Ben (00:08.916)
Thanks, Sean. Good to see you. Been a few years, but thanks for having me

Sean (00:14.094)
It has and we'll get into that how our paths have crossed. I always open asking people how they got their start in the world of sports business. What about yourself? How did you get your first gig in sports?

Ben (00:28.448)
Sean, I managed to do a job that I didn't love straight out of uni. And after a few years of doing that, I was determined to never feel that way about my job again. back in 2004, I did a bit more study and made my way into Football Federation Australia as it was known at the time. Took a bit of a step back and kind of loved it from day one and kind of that's how that was the start of my journey.

Sean (01:02.594)
So it's an interesting point as someone that's transitioned from a different, different area. was a Coda developer for many years and enjoyed it for a while. And that same sort of had that calling of, like sport. want a bit more purpose in what I do. What was that job and skill set and how were you able to transfer? Cause there's a lot of people who have really great skill sets in different sectors or completely different industries that could be applied to sport.

What were some of the things that were crucial for you to go, I've done this job for a fair while, but I actually want to work in sport. Were there any transferable skills in that space?

Ben (01:38.196)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, out of uni and we're talking in the UK at the time, I found myself in a sales role, IT recruitment sales role, where I was actually finding IT people in the UK to go and work in Australia. it's, yeah, on the face of it, it sounds quite purposeful, but it's target sales. It's an intense cutthroat environment. And initially I…

I kind of, I loved it. It brought me out to Australia, but I guess the lack of the lack of purpose really started to kind of weigh on me as thinking is this, is this my life for the for the next 20 years or so. And it really, it really gave me the motivation to get into sport

Australia at the time, we're talking 2004, just a land of opportunity. And it felt more so than where I'd grown up in the UK, that everything was obtainable. So yeah, knocked on a few doors, I managed to get an internship at the time. And I guess the…

The hardcore sales aspect that I was used to, whilst I wanted to establish more deeper connections, better relationships, be more solution mindset, I guess there's a skill of being proactive that stood me in good stead.

Sean (03:20.962)
And definitely moving into a role, into a sponsorship and a commercial role at FFA, I mean, that sales skill is always transferable. Like I'm always telling people, hey, what skills should I have? And I'm like, well, if you can sell, whether it's sell tickets, sell sponsorship, sell hospitality, you'll always find a home in sport. That must have been a skill of that persistence that you have to have in sales.

Ben (03:45.726)
Yeah, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, I went more down the sort of servicing and marketing partnership route for a period of time. yeah, as my career progressed, those were skills that I could absolutely recognize were essential and a kind of a building block for me. yeah, at the time, I remember sitting in meetings at Football Federation Australia, just with a smile on my face, and I can't believe I'm in a meeting.

talking about a football match. was just mind blowing to me and I just loved it from day

Sean (04:23.638)
And so you had a variety of roles, like you said, in the account servicing, the hospitality, and getting into pitches and bringing sponsors on board. For the FFA at that time, for the people who don't know, were running the A -League and the Matildas and the Socceroos. It was an exciting time to be at the FFA.

Ben (04:44.608)
Yeah, well, I'm showing my age a bit, Sean, because there was no A -League at this time. It was sort of 12 months away from when I joined. you know, the organization was very much lined up around three objectives, which was launch the A -League, get the Socceroos to a World Cup after 32 years, and break out of the Oceania Federation and be part of the global conversation as part of Asia.

So at the time there was two sponsors, I think the sports commission and, and Nike and then Qantas, T, national Australia bank, Sony Westfield, others just, just came on board and it was, it was just a wonderful time to be involved.

Sean (05:31.502)
And so you're at the FFA for nearly 10 years. What was your next step in your career after

Ben (05:41.482)
So post FFA, I took a bit of a turn and I worked in the sort of more traditional not for profit sector. And when I worked at the McGrath Foundation with incredible people like Glenn McGrath and Tracy Bevan and really understanding what true purpose kind of looked like in terms of supporting families going through a traumatic kind breast cancer journey and the role that a fundraising charity can play to support them through the provision of nurses. bit of a turn, but there was still this sport link through that cricket connection. So, yeah, very, very special time.

Sean (06:31.478)
And I guess it's sort of effectively, you you have really connected things to be now, you know, the last five years at, at cricket, New South Wales, you know, in that, in that, in that commercial role, what does, what's in that, what's in your remit when we're talking about cricket, New South Wales, because the cricket landscape, you know, has changed cricket, New South Wales is one of our, you know, early clients at the, at the start of the big bash and the generation of the, of the two big bash teams, the Sydney Thunder and the, and the Sydney Sixes. What does, what does New South Wales, I guess, remit look like right

Ben (07:05.856)
Yeah, well, Cricket New South Wales is the state body of cricket in New South Wales, obviously. And I guess the original remit, kind of 150 years ago, was administer competitions and produce rep teams. So we still do that, but we have a huge focus on developing the game through increasing participation. And then over the last 15 years, we've become a marketing organization.

With the advent of the Big Bash. So Cricket New South Wales run both the Sydney Sixers and the Sydney Thunder in the BBL and the WBBL. And that's our fan facing teams. That's what drives the passion. And it's those clubs that we are linking back into the grassroots to get families and kids interested in the game.

Sean (08:04.236)
And so it is pretty unique. mean, it's only really, you know, cricket, Victoria, similar in that you're actually managing to, I will say, four entities with the men's and the women's, but two effectively teams under the one banner. Most people are in a chief commercial role, whether they be the Sydney Swans or the, or the GWS giants or the rabbit. they're just managing that one, one entity in that one brand. What is it? What's some of the, yeah.

How is it managing effectively two entities in the same market?

Ben (08:35.824)
Yeah, it's got its huge pluses and it comes with some challenges. So states with one BBL team have, they're able to organize their people kind of more easily around their one brand. Cricket New South Wales has had an evolution over time essentially operating two separate clubs.

Then sort of migrated to more of a kind of Formula One model where, you know, one team with two cars on the track. But I guess there's headwinds in cricket and there were challenges with that kind of shared service model. And we've very much over the last couple of years migrating back to this kind.

These clubs really showing up as individual clubs and that includes internal structures here at Cricket NSW. So we have some great leaders leading those clubs and they are separate entities with some, they lean on some shared service capability within Cricket NSW such as sort of consumer business expertise and sponsorship expertise and that kind of

Sean (10:01.75)
And then, you know, then you have got Big Bash and we've had guests on like Alistair Dobson talking about the Big Bash that continues to evolve year on year. What does the product that you're taking to market, you know, when you're going out to a partner, what does a partner, what are partners looking for and getting from Cricket, New South Wales and both of the Big Bash franchises?

Ben (10:26.688)
The the Big Bash is in a is in a good position that it has very high broadcast audiences in Australia. So through Channel 7, particularly, but also increasingly through through Foxtel and KO, there's a significant amount of reach that our partners can achieve through being associated with with our with our teams. So that's kind of mass market reach, I guess, more more locally, if you look at the profile of our fans in the stadiums.

It's very much about a family night out. it's parents and their kids choosing to come to one of our stadiums as opposed to staying home and watching TV or going to the movies. we, in terms of kind of a value proposition for our partners, it's very much kind of key grocery buy type segment.

So the brands that you'd see advertise through The Voice and kind of primetime TV, they're the kind of brands that want to be involved in our clubs. And I don't need to sell sponsorship to you, Sean, but I will. There's the opportunity for a more meaningful connection than simply billboards or spots and dots advertising.

Sean (11:50.848)
And is that how have you seen, I guess, I guess that sponsorship product change over, you know, over your journey, but, now with, you know, fan experience both in stadium and at home, how do you, how do you, you know, activate in the stadium? How do you, how do you use the digital channels? How have you seen that, that mix and that offer that's going to your, to your partners change over the journey?

Ben (12:17.3)
Yeah, that's a really interesting question, Sean, actually, because I think the core proposition of connection to the game and brand awareness stays true. there's moments in time and trends where we need to find more attributable sales channels with our partnerships or create lead generation or have a heavy focus on promoting brands through our digital assets.

And we do all that and we do that as meaningfully as possible. But the underlying premise of helping a fan enjoy the experience and most of our experiences are live. If a brand can connect to that authentically and be seen doing it,

I think that's the core proposition that still holds very true throughout kind of trends and moments in time and social media changes. So yeah, that is a core proposition that endures. Obviously the media market has fragmented. And so there is the need to show up on more channels and be more sophisticated in that regard.

So you know, the likes of there's the live audience, which is still driving a huge amount of value. But there's snackable content, how we show up on social media. We need to be mindful of the core proposition of connection, helping our fans enjoy the game and help that show up in these different forms of media.

Sean (14:04.278)
And have partners been better at making those asks in that space rather than just saying, you know, we want our logo here or we want to take over this piece without actually, you know, having a deeper understanding of your fans.

Ben (14:21.534)
Yeah, like our partners are constantly looking to us to help them both justify the partnership and innovate as well. the partners generally have their own form of metrics. So their own mass market research is this moving the dial on awareness to consideration or consideration to purchase intent?

But they definitely look to us in order to, I guess, be their shop window for, I guess, more innovative ways to connect with with fans. They're not necessarily saying, hey, we need to do this on TikTok. They're asking us how we're connecting with our fans and how they can be part of

Sean (15:13.262)
One thing is I'm always interested in, you know, in talking to commercial folk like you, because I'm working a lot of the times with the digital folk and we've got a digital to dollars process to help bridge that gap between digital and commercial. How have you worked with your digital team to one, best integrate digital assets that actually work on the platforms that are working well for the audiences that are working well, but then also get that to work with the partners? How has your process evolved

understanding what your team can deliver and also making sure it's delivering for the partner.

Ben (15:48.51)
Well, I feel like I'm kind of poacher turned gamekeeper in that regard. you know, I spent a lot of my career on the sponsorship side, working with kind of marketing teams and digital teams, asking them to do, give us more, more, more, just to sort of shamelessly promote brands because we're feeling the pressure, I guess, you know, to deliver a return on objectives.

In my role and where I'm at now with Cricket New South Wales, I also have responsibility for the engagement of those channels. And the underlying premise of a commercial proposition to a brand is that you have an engaged audience. And if you don't have an engaged audience, the value of what you can offer is seriously diminished. there's, I'm kind of overseeing,

I'm on both sides of that equation at the moment, but some of the ways that we tackle it, better planning, being less susceptible to a unproductive piece of content. So we educate our partners that success looks like an engaged, high quality fan base. And that means having a sophisticated and fan led piece of content. And that also extends

I guess the volume of retail messaging versus content and fan first messaging. So I'm not going to say that we've got a perfect solution there, but our teams are very mindful of that balance. And we also understand the commercial team of which the marketing and the Big Bash team sits.

Also understand that our role is to generate revenue, but through an engaged fan base. So it's not one or the other. A couple of other things that we're doing on the digital space is, firstly, really bolstering our content capability. So we really view that channel as key. The Big Bash is a relatively short season versus other codes. So we need to have more meaningful ways to engage fans outside of stadiums

Ben (18:12.28)

A couple of other things. Well, another thing we do is we're evolving from a state where sponsors had quantified number of social posts or EDMs. Evolving that to more of a rate card. So a sponsor will be granted X amount of value. This is what a post is worth. This is what an EDM is worth. But let's work with you on your objectives and find the right mix rather than being tied into something that was negotiated 18 months

Sean (18:45.558)
Yeah, it's really, really important. You can't they can be contractual handcuffs. If you say he's he's all the posts that are going to happen. And then you're really just fighting against that that piece before it's like, well, we need to keep our engagement up. So having those tough conversations either with your partner to say, this is why we need to do it this way. But then also with your with your digital team, your content team to say, well, we need to do these kind of things to to bring in revenue.

You know, finding that balance is tough, you've got to have those conversations. Otherwise you just end up, you know, ticking the box, putting out the content. No one ends up happy. And then it just becomes a tougher proposition for new around renewal

Ben (19:25.374)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Sean (19:27.882)
I want to talk about a couple of partners you do have. You have a few government initiatives as partners with New South Wales government with Towards Zero and Reclaim the Game. They're very different partners than other verticals that are, know, either FNB or financial that are looking for something transactional. What are some of the keys to success for government partnerships?

Ben (19:52.084)
The reason why those type of government agencies want to align with sport is that we have role models who can deliver a message that has a greater chance of being heard than a politician in a press conference. Particularly post COVID, people don't really want to be told what to do or how to behave. So it's what sports can offer.

is influence from sports and role models that people want hear from. So our attitude towards those government partners is to really elevate the level of engagement internally to cause level. So we talk about reclaim the game, that's reducing the prominence of sports betting advertising. in our games, that's a cause that we believe in.

Towards zero, there's been horrific numbers of fatalities, particularly in New South Wales over the last couple of years. So it's more than just a sponsorship. Our attitude is that we get behind that as a message and we influence directly through our channels and we also influence the cricket community.

that we support and by taking that position with those partnerships, I believe that we're delivering for the government on the premise which is help proliferating those messages.

Sean (21:36.076)
And then going forward, like the measurement and I guess the metrics around commercial have become more advanced and more sophisticated, you know, your journey in the space. Are there particular things that you're focused on as key success factors for you with Crooked NSW?

Ben (21:58.591)
Yep, there's in terms of the partnership space, we do, we report on return on objectives. We still report on media value, although that is becoming sort of increasingly kind of page 20 of the report rather than page one. We talk about the size of the fan base.

We talk about the level of product messaging we've been able to integrate. But really key for us, it kind of falls down unless you've really established some sound objectives at the front of a campaign to be able to report back on. Other things that we do is really measure the engagement of our partners. So we've established an engagement score that looks like,

Do we have those objectives in place? Do we have multi -tiered relationships, kind of CEO down to day -to -day contact? What is the state of the long -term contract? Are they investing the right amount of leverage funds? So we score that and then we monitor our teams on how to lift the level of engagement.

Sean (23:21.761)
And then from your product's point of view, one of the key assets you have is your audience, both who is watching on TV, but then who you're owning your CRM and what you know about your fans. How important is that data point and getting depth of data of your fan base to know them better, being critical in securing deals?

Ben (23:49.318)
Look, if you can't, if you don't know your audience, you're just shooting for the sky really. So, yeah, we have various kind of profiles. We have broader panel data, we have ticket buying data, we have attendee match surveys, we have social media profiles, and we put all that together with the size of them.

And that's how we present ourselves to market.

Sean (24:22.354)
And one of the big things in the calendar that is the Sydney test, of effectively known as the pink test now, you you've you've previously, you know, said you worked at McGrath Foundation. I just want to get your insights on, you know, what that means to to to Sydney and New South Wales and what it's like on day three when when the stadium is full and frankly, a wash with it's an incredible day

Ben (24:48.926)
It's an incredible test match actually. it's really born out of a genuine authenticity of the Sydney sixers and test match attendees really understanding the journey that Glenn McGrath went on. So there's a genuine kind of love and connection. that still holds many years on and it's spilled out into this expression of meaningful support.

So the day is, it can be quite overwhelming if you're, depending on the level of personal experience with any form of cancer or involvement in cricket or the McGraw Foundation because just the outpouring of support is, yeah, it's a sight to behold.

Yeah, very, very special event.

Sean (25:49.064)
And, you know, we spoke earlier about your transition from a from a IT recruitment role into into the world of sport. Do you have any advice for listeners that, you know, I know I've got listeners who listen to the podcast almost vicariously because they want to get into the world of sport. Yeah, what advice do you have for them to say, hey, if you want to work in sport, what would you

Ben (26:12.692)
Well, give it a red -hot go firstly. Have a lot of conversations with people and be willing to do what it takes. So, you know, when I meet people looking to get into the industry, I'm so impressed by CVs that have accumulated a volume of voluntary experience or trips overseas.

or kind of doing what it takes. So even if you're relatively young and you haven't had a lot of years in the workforce, you can still accumulate a body of work and kind of worldly experience. Then I guess, yeah, once you get those opportunities, being humble and being willing to solve problems and be motivated and accountable, don't wait to be asked. So we really…

We really look for people that attitude, a humble attitude and a willingness to do what it takes. And I think if you can combine all that and you knock on enough doors, the opportunities will come.

Sean (27:19.422)
And definitely like you spoke before about the cricket as well, this is the state body looking after cricket. There's a lots of roles in that grassroots ecosystem, whether it be helping run clubs, putting your hand up for committees, helping to get sponsors for your local cricket club. They're all skills that eventually can become transferable. And it is a matter of putting your hand

Ben (27:50.206)
Yeah, absolutely. It also just talks to the attitude. You know, it's very hard through an interview process to really know the substance of an individual, but those kind of things really show that there's an intrinsic motivation. So I definitely look for that, particularly with people that can't rely on pointing to actual experience.

Sean (28:10.988)
And so when staff come, you know, start working with you, either they're in, you know, those early roles like you were in account servicing and partnership activation or, you know, cutting their teeth, helping sales, what's your advice for them to have success in that commercial space? Because in the end, you are selling and servicing and trying to bring success to partners.

Ben (28:35.444)
I think your really key is just a willingness to solve problems and not do it, not do it all on your own. So you don't have to tackle a problem, solve it by yourself and then say, Hey, how did I do? But it's this proactive, it's on me. And you're going to seek the advice that you need and you're going to follow through on that advice and you're going to report back on that advice. So it's that, it's that level of accountability.

the when I see that in young people it separates them from everyone else so that would be the know the major piece of advice.

Sean (29:13.182)
And we're not far away from the summer of cricket upon us. What's exciting you for the summer of cricket ahead?

Ben (29:24.5)
Well, both the Sixers and the Thunder have got a fantastic opportunity this summer. Amazing playing lists, some of whom are yet to be announced, but watch this space for some really exciting announcements. And a schedule that allows for big TV.

But one of the challenges with the Big Bash has been seven o ‘clock starts. That means if you've got young kids, they're on both shoulders asleep walking out. But this year we've got some earlier start times that will essentially increase our attendance as well as sort of having those traditional TV time slots. So you're really looking forward to the season.

Sean (30:18.862)
Terrific, terrific. Before I wrap up, want to get to the, really appreciate you taking the time, Ben. I want to get to the Sports Geek Closing Five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?

Ben (30:34.588)
I do, do. I was seven or eight years old and it was in Brighton in the UK and my dad took me along to Brighton and Hove Albion v Everton. I won't tell you the decade but it was a while ago.

Sean (30:54.382)
Terrific. And you would have been to a lot of different sports events in your time. Do you have a favorite food or a favorite food memory at a sports event?

Ben (31:05.592)
My go -to is the hot dog with lashings of American mustard. They did put me off going to a Yankees game and they tell you how many calories that is so I prefer not to know that but that would be my go -to every

Sean (31:20.812)
No, it's part of the experience. They shouldn't have dietary information on hot dogs at a ballpark anywhere. What's the first app you open in the morning?

Ben (31:23.584)
That's right.

Ben (31:33.868)
BBC sport is my go -to.

Sean (31:37.358)
Just catch up on the on everything

Ben (31:41.182)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. With a nod to football. But it covers American sports and cricket. So it's got what I

Sean (31:52.238)
What is there someone that you follow might be on a social channel or it might be an author that the podcast listeners should give a follow to and

Ben (32:04.574)
Well, I could indirectly, indirectly shamelessly plug the, the sixer and the, and the thunder. They're a good follow, but the one that I go to every time is, is out of the UK. It's called cheeky golf club. And it's a guy that's trying to, trying to improve his golf game and he's playing every day. And, you might not be into golf, but as an industry, professional, what I love about it is it's authentic authenticity and the repeatable format.

just gets me going back every

Sean (32:36.59)
Yeah, that, I guess that seems to be a current trend of the minute of how I'm going to do this series. I'm going to do it for, for 30 days or, you know, in instance, it be golf. One that I've been following recently is a Kiwi guy called Tim Naki playing blackjack every day. And every day he's, you know, he started by doing it, betting 10 cents for every follower. And so everyone would follow more. So he was betting more every day. So that series format,

is something that content creators are doing well. It's not something that I've actually seen moved into teams and those kind of things, but it might be something that teams pick up in an off season, it is a good recommendation. Lastly, what social media platform is your MVP? So you can answer this personally and then maybe also from the team perspective.

Ben (33:31.306)
Personally, it's Instagram. From a team perspective, probably TikTok. But my worst part of the week is my phone telling me how much time I've spent on it. I'm avoiding getting into TikTok. So yeah, Instagram for me.

Sean (33:50.67)
It does have that effect. even if you try to put those time limiters on it, you still dismiss them or extend it for a little bit longer. So yeah, it is something that we're all trying to manage. Ben, for those who have listened to this episode and would like to reach out to you, what's the best way for listeners to reach out to

Ben (34:15.924)
Yeah, thanks, Sean. LinkedIn is the way. yeah, Ben Hirschfeld, you'll find me. There's not too many of us with that name. And yeah, please reach out. I'll happily respond.

Sean (34:29.538)
Well, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. All the best for the summer cricket ahead for the Thunder and the Big Bash and we'll talk

Ben (34:39.604)
Great, thanks for having me, Sean.