How to tell stories (and sell tickets) with data – Nick Makarov, Austin FC

This transcript has been transcribed by Riverside.fm, no edits (please excuse any errors)

Sean Callanan (00:01.315)
Very happy to welcome Nick Makarov. He's the Director of Business Insights and Analytics at Austin FC. Nick, welcome to the podcast.

Nick Makarov (00:10.168)
Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation, man.

Sean Callanan (00:13.485)
Not a problem at all. I'm always interested in how people got their start in the world of sports, because how they found their entry. What about yourself? How did you find your way into the world of sports?

Nick Makarov (00:23.766)
Yeah, it was, was not traditional to say the least. I industry hopped, out of school. I went to school in New York and, living in New York, it's, it's very easy to become a product to your environment. And, next thing I knew, I ended up in finance and an analyst program. And, it was great. mean, like, I don't by any means regret that experience. I learned a lot about myself. I challenged myself, met a lot of very smart people, but, came time where I approached a fork in the road.

and had to take action and that did align with with year one of COVID. So obviously everybody's experience was different, but I did have some free time to explore other industries. If my old boss listens to this, he might he might send me a sassy note, but that's the reality. But honestly, it was just it was investigatory at first. Now, like I just sports is vast. So many markets in the country and around the globe. Right. And I just I wanted to learn.

It honestly is I was DMing people on LinkedIn, just kind of asking for that informational 15, right? And there you get a lot of swings and misses, but every now and then somebody responds back. And one of those people is my current manager, Harrison Kim. So we went back and forth for probably about six months.

And honestly, just very high level conversation. Like saw that you released your first ever kit. It looks great. Congrats. Stuff like that. And then he eventually posted a job. was a data warehouse job. And that was one thing I grappled with, Like how do I industry hop? How do I pitch myself as somebody with no sports experience?

because I really did kind of settle on sports. Like I wanted that environment. I wanted that impact on community and just the overall buzz, you know, being, I'm not working with soccer data per se, but being soccer adjacent makes the days go a lot quicker. And yeah, so I leveraged and leaned on a lot of the statistical programming that I was doing at the financial firm, right? Like I was working with financial models and I no longer do so all the time, but

Nick Makarov (02:33.674)
using SQL or Python and just being able to navigate a data landscape was enough for me to get my foot in the door. And once I was able to kind of prove that I could do that stuff, then, you know, I'm a fan of my own voice. So once I hopped on the phone with people, I liked my chances. But now, I mean, I'm glad it worked out. was somewhat of a lengthy process because it was right before

Austin FC launched, right? So there's a lot of they were taking a lot of leaps over here calculated leaps, but they wanted to make sure they got that that first front office right. So I'm very happy to be here. It's been a pleasure to be here for almost four years, but can't say that my journey has been the same as others.

Sean Callanan (03:16.365)
But I mean, definitely, you know, that that piece of you had a few people on the podcast of industry hopped on the industry hopper myself, you know, before I was a geek and now I'm sports geek. How did you, you know, in that going through that process, you know, working in finance, you know, crunching numbers, you know, making massive multi million dollar decisions based on the analysis, how did you start taking some of, you know, that knowledge and that skill set to say, here's how I could apply it in sports, whether it was, you know, in your own head, but then also pitching yourself.

to Austin FC.

Nick Makarov (03:48.644)
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing I was yearning for in my previous job, and it was just a huge company, right? working with lot of small people, smart people internally, but oftentimes, you you would do a lot of really challenging work and it'd be sent into a void of sorts, you know, like whether it's the client or somebody higher up at the firm, you know, you don't often get to reap what you sow. And I think that that was kind of my angle in interviewing with sports is like, I've got all these technical skills.

I can prove it to you here. You go see look. but I, I wanted to, you know, see the fruits of my labor. And I thought that, you know, in an organization like Austin FCE, that was, you know, getting built out, that was on the rise. kind of just the pitch was really like, here's what I can do and here's the decision I would make. Right. And I think that, one thing I've always valued even like just dating back to colleges is the, the skill of storytelling. And I'll tell like anybody that, you know, inquires to me about like, Hey, I want to learn more about your job.

I, and it's usually the questions are like, yeah, so which, which languages should I learn? Which software is which, vendors do you use? Which are all valid, no doubt. But I, I harp on storytelling quite a bit, right? Like I think the, line I use too much is you could be a PhD in statistics, but if you can't explain your work, it's all for moot. So my pitch was really like, okay, I'm going to just bombard you with all this, like very complex code, and, and like mathematical models.

here's my explanation of it in 30 seconds, right? As if we were having beers and I just wanted to let you know what I thought, what I found and what I thought. So I think I wanted to be close to the decision makers and it was that sort of how I approached the interviews, just saying like, here's what I could do in theory if I had this data.

Sean Callanan (05:36.781)
I mean, it's a completely super valuable skill that that ability to synthesize, you know, all of this data, everything you've done, you know, complexity to someone that does not know those numbers, I'll know you how you got it. But here's the why he's why it's important. You know, here's what I would do. You need to be able to, you know, I look back my days of talking to gigs and then talking to the business, you need to be able to do that, that translation effectively, so someone can understand, this is why this number from Nick is important.

And this is why we're making that decision. And you started feeling more ownership and understanding and knowing, hey, the stuff that I'm doing is mattering because I'm changing a price point and I'm seeing the ticketing going up or I'm seeing a sponsorship deal get over the line because of something that I've added to the equation.

Nick Makarov (06:24.034)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think too, it's it's understanding cause and effect, like any data centric role, right? But I also find like something I try to employ is just being hyper honest and transparent, right? Because I think for non-technical folks, there's a temptation to just believe whatever the numbers nerds say, right? There's not a lot of time for critical thinking. Not to say that folks at Austin FCE aren't thinking critically about what they're receiving.

but we're all moving a mile a minute, right? So I think that like, what's important too is to almost humanize the data a little bit being like, okay, this particular dataset was extra tricky to work with or we have this nuance in 2022, like making the playoffs that we didn't have in 2023, just calling that stuff out at the onset. So it's not like apples to apples. So people know it's not apples to apples or even just for people to know that I struggled with the analysis I think is…

is a good level setting exercise because I believe there to be a temptation to be like, well, like, you know, our nerd said this, so it must be true. And it's, I think in the translation exercise, there's also a humanizing exercise that needs to take place.

Sean Callanan (07:34.797)
And so, I mean, you said there you're in New York and go to Austin, very, very different, different markets. What can you describe, you know, Austin as both a city as a sports market. Many people might not include myself, no Austin, when it swells in size around South by Southwest. But what's Austin like as a sports market?

Nick Makarov (07:54.38)
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. think one thing that trickles into our work as well is that in the four years I've been in Austin, you know, I am a transplant. I was nervous about admitting that when I moved because it was just, you know, like, you know, top of the list of where people moving, you know, at the turn of the decade. And but now, now, see, as long as you're a polite guest and open minded, like, I don't see that to be a problem. But it's been what's with

been interesting and challenging and fun is that I feel like both as an organization and a city, it's been different every year, right? Like, you know, I think Austin is like ever changing and trying to find its identity with like amidst all this gross growth and investment, right? And it was just, you know, no secret. It's been a Longhorn town. been a burnt orange town for so long, right? And Austin FC took on the exercise of providing something for

you know, lifelong Austinites and transplants. And that is, you know, it's hitting one bullet with another, right? But I think it makes our jobs fun. You know, just appreciating and respecting Austin's history, but also trying to build something new. I mean, it's like if you're in town for South by Southwest, not to say it's like that all the time, but there's always a buzz in the city, right? And that translate, whether it's like music, food and drink, the arts, you know, water sport, what have you, that translated seamlessly.

into soccer, into football. And I mean, we've been like, we still got a home match sellout streak like four years in. And, you know, I think that there've been some changes on the field year by year, but the fandom has remained the same. And that's really fun to work with, right? Like I think that.

When the building's full at the very least, you feel like you have the liberty to try new things, right? And there's more of an opportunity to listen. That's not just necessarily like, hey, we're not hitting our goals. Everybody's stressing out. And I think when people panic, they make rash decisions. So the loyal Austin fan base has given us a blank slate every year. And the communication loop is there and healthy.

Nick Makarov (10:04.8)
So no, it's been a bunch of fun. I didn't know exactly what to expect. But just, you know, in a place like New York, you have options. You have 10 properties. And, you know, when the jets or giants are doing poorly, you can lean on the Knicks, the who are on the up, right? There's always something in New York. And I mean, Austin has options too, right? Like on a Saturday night, you've got a bunch of music, you got a bunch of nightlife. There's always something going on.

Sean Callanan (10:15.043)
Yeah.

Nick Makarov (10:32.994)
But I think that we've inserted ourselves into that consideration, into that mix. And that's the most we can ask at this time.

Sean Callanan (10:40.389)
And you spoke there about the, about the sell outs. One of the big things obviously in business analytics is, ticketing and fill the stadium. But so how does your role change in the focus change when you are having that success and having those sell outs? Cause the pressure of, you know, cheeks on the seats isn't as much there, but you're always thinking of what's next. How can I further engage a community? What does, yeah, what does your analytics focus sort of take on in that case?

Nick Makarov (11:08.436)
Yeah, I it was like I said before that the role has changed a bit each year I've been here for the better. But like year one, you're exactly right. It's just get butts in seats and you know, we'll figure out the rest later. And the Austin responded back and they continue to fill the seats. So that just it gave us the opportunity to be more dynamic, right? Like I think that we always want to price fairly in the market, but also recognize the value of product. Right. So the end that's

it's always a push and pull. It's gonna be a push and pull no matter what. I think that there are a lot of very like seasoned professionals in the organization that have been around sports for most of their careers. And it's like as an analyst, you have to respect that, right? Like you have to respect the stripes that have been earned. And even if like my analysis says one thing, but somebody that's been in sports for 20 years disagrees, like that's just, that's a conversation that needs to be had rather than.

like yes, you are right or no, you are wrong. Blending art and science, that's one of the buzzwords that we use quite often here. Nothing's ever gonna be black and white, cut and dry. So it's understanding like, which areas of the stadium are experiencing the most drastic change year over year, right? Like why is this section, you know, like selling.

for 2x on the secondary while this other one is struggling to move. And the scan rates are tough. Is that a sight lines thing? Is it a concessions thing? Then you shift your focus operationally. But I think, too, it's just like that's even if we've got buy-in from the ticketing team, from the president, everything, it's being nimble no matter what. You can build your dynamic pricing models. You can make your assumptions before the season in terms of which games are going to be high demand.

But know, the MLS season is 10 months long. So like so much is going to change, whether it's on field, like Austin economically, right? Other events in town, know, Texas football is, you know, in the college football playoff. That was kind of tough to compete with this year. And so just being nimble and being like willing to make those changes when you need to. Because above all else, like I think that we value that atmosphere.

Sean Callanan (13:16.932)
Yeah.

Nick Makarov (13:29.092)
for our players, just for all the teams involved, right? So it's like, yes, like any other team, we wanna hit the bottom line, we wanna hit our goals, we wanna grow as a business and invest in more. But first and foremost, we wanna create that experience for Austin. that makes that you just gotta make sure your economics are fair and productive.

Sean Callanan (13:51.299)
We're talking now in in the MLS offseason and you know, we all joke in sports that, you know, there really isn't an offseason because there's always planning and thinking about the next 12 months. What does that look? What does the offseason look like for you when, you know, assessing the season that just was and starting to put the plans in place for for 2025?

Nick Makarov (14:12.1)
Yeah, it's kind of funny because it's like, you know, everybody says to live in the present, but in the off season, it's like you're 50 % of your time is recapping the previous year and the other 50 is looking ahead. So kind of being pulled in both directions, but it's part of the game, like you said. And so there's a lot of work to be done. Typically, the MLS schedule gets released sometime before the December holidays. So there is a lot of guesswork because nobody, it's not like we're getting inside knowledge or anything. So we are.

plotting out a lot of like what if scenarios and kind of how we want to roll out tickets and pricing and you know, there's a whole in MLS. There's always a big especially for Western Conference teams that can't count on it. A big light pink elephant in the room and you know, everything changes if that Domino Falls, but yeah, it's it's I think the early parts of the offseason. It's making sure finance has what they need. Let's let's close those books, right?

Let's make sure that the partners feel satisfied in their recaps. there's a lot of just like, you know, here's here is what we surveyed our fans. Here's what they said. Here's the money your product made in the stadium. Here's what we have in store for next year. Right. Like just being the B. think we're closest with the partnerships team in recap season like any other B. Team. And then once the schedule comes out, we're we're tearing matches. We're we're creating an early dynamic pricing model.

Sean Callanan (15:31.716)
Yeah.

Nick Makarov (15:38.5)
And then once we get back from like New Year's celebrations, because MLS shuts down from Christmas to New Year's, then it's like the seasons here, right? So I think MLS, every off season is short, but MLS is especially short. And there's just, I think one thing I value about MLS is it's just like willingness to change, to experiment. I think it's been like the little sibling of the big five in the US, but there's opportunity there, right? Like the ceiling's a lot higher.

then other more established leaks and, you know, one of those, like, there's an article that came out somewhat recently, like, okay, the world cup is in 2026. should we consider a schedule change that would have a massive effect on, BI opera on every team's operation, right? But, something that we're monitoring closely. and then we've got the, the wrinkle of, of MLS all-star 2025. So that one's actually been a pretty exciting process just cause you're meeting and talking with people like.

in the city, right? Just, it's almost feels like you're, talking to the entire cast of, of like parks and rec, right? Just local government and everybody's got their priorities, their ideas, they're all good ones, but it's like, okay, this really is, this isn't an Austin FC showcase. This is an Austin showcase and we've got, there's a lot to show off here. So it's like, what kind of events can we put on? I'm always like, I'm always excited, like for the marketing team and the ops teams to, to plan events.

The jersey launched last February was especially fun. I ended up with a tattoo that night. So it does get more awesome than that. But I just know they're going to put on something cool. And I think that the BI team from that perspective is just in the rafters, OK, what's the plan? How are we going to welcome in new fans? What does that environment look like? How do we

keep them to be awesome FC fans? How do we expand on already diehard fans? How do we respect their wishes? And how do we keep growing? Nobody wants a stale product, right? Even if like you're just a sports fan, you know, tried and true, you want some new stuff, you want something new. And I think that just creating that bedrock of data is very important for the very creative folks in the organization to do what they do best.

Sean Callanan (17:30.799)
Yeah.

Sean Callanan (17:54.115)
Yeah, definitely. It's very similar. I spoke to Drew Bentley at DC United and they were in the same lead up to the All-Star. And like you said, there's that uncertainty of the season one when the games are how the teams are formulated. Like because you have that tent pole that does embrace the whole city, you can be putting whole plans around it. And then, know, being a data guy, you're like, where can we get as much data as possible? What type of data is it? Are they completely new fans or are we engaging our fans? That putting those plans in place must be exciting to be able to

to be able to, I guess, provide that support to your marketing ops team.

Nick Makarov (18:28.204)
Yeah, it is very exciting. And I think that it's also, it's in my opinion, just going to create a great testing ground for the big beast that will be 2026, right? Like it's, Austin is not a host city for any World Cup games, but Dallas and Houston are and central Texas has proven to be a massive soccer market. So even if it's not Austin FC games during the 2026 World Cup, it's, we're going to be activating throughout the city, right? And you know, World Cup.

gets everybody's eyes on the sport. And I think that, like, especially in the North American market, everybody learns that in the nineties during the last World's Cup here. and like in its wake came the inception of MLS, right? And similar to the launch of Austin FC, you have to build the plane while you're flying it a little bit. But I think that every, the league and its clubs are going to be ready to just get more dangerous with the data this time around. let's,

take those new soccer fans and do something with them, right? it's, and All-Star is gonna be a great little beta test for that, right? Like, okay, we've got some fans coming to see the fellas from Inter Miami, any other players that are on the up in the league. And here's what a pipeline could look like. Here's what a fan funnel, fan segmentation.

Hey marketing, hey partnerships, here's what we have access to. What do you find valuable? And then that's where that conversation loop happens again.

Sean Callanan (19:55.673)
mean, the good thing about Austin, like I said before, like enough to go to South by Southwest, you know, the city can handle, you know, that big influx of people and, you know, with open arms and with all the Austin hospitality. So, you know, that that box is already going to be ticked.

Nick Makarov (20:10.058)
Yeah, no, it's, that's the thing too. And like just being, creating a community similar to South by two, I think is going to be very possible during all star, especially if you kind of bookends the calendar year in Austin, right? You've got South by in the spring, you've got Austin city limits in the fall and also is going to fall right in the middle of those two. Right. So I think that you will get your soccer fanatics and people that travel for the sport. But I think that Austin's going to Austin as a city and it's the greater Metro is going to be very engaged as well.

And even selfishly on the BI front, I think, I mean, like we've been at a conference together, right? I think a huge value of that is just sitting down with folks and chatting and almost, you know, comparing tech stacks and plans and grievances. And this is going to be another opportunity to do so. And it doesn't even really have to be MLS BI teams, right? But I, I find most value in that, right? Just like, Hey, it's so many players in this market do so many different things and, and similar things, right? And there's just.

There's so much noise, there's a lot of fatigue. And I think MLS specifically is at a point where, we have to be vendor reliant, right? Where none of us are big enough to build everything in-house. So it's just picking your battles. And I think creating a community, especially in a town like Austin, where I can take everybody to my favorite bar in Nickel City and we can just chat honestly for a little bit and have follow-up questions where needed.

Sean Callanan (21:35.269)
Absolutely. I part of the interview prep is as us asking guests what they're passionate about. And you responded the future of warehousing and lake housing in sports. So first of all, for those who aren't in the data and data geek space, explain that but then, you know, tell us why you think that that space is exciting and evolving.

Nick Makarov (21:55.138)
Yeah, I I think that once upon a time you had your players in the market that kind of gave sports front offices like an entire suite of data tools, right? Here's your warehouse. We recommend you use this visualization software. We will build stuff on top of your CRM and then you can just let it hum. It's one fixed cost year over year. And I think for…

I think for sport, my own opinion too, in sports business, for organizations to take that step into the space, I think that that white glove service was absolutely necessary. And I think that each of the vendors in the space are certainly changing. And I think that they know BI teams are getting more capable. And I think that's it. I just think that with these big events on the horizon, every BI team just wants that little bit more freedom, little bit more flexibility, right?

And I guess to take a step back, like I think one of the better explanations of like warehouse versus Lake house is like a data warehouse is, for your, your like standard, guess, cause it, it like a legacy BI team where here's the data. You have to report on this data, make sure it's accurate. Use your data warehouse to do so. And I think a data Lake house is, is instead it like, it allows you to do all those reporting functions.

but it allows you to be proactive a little bit more, right? That unstructured data that can come into a lake house could just makes models smarter, right? It opens the door for legitimate machine learning when it's harder to do so with a warehouse. So I think that, especially from MLS, I like, I mean, it's no secret that, you know, the NFL teams, NBA teams have more head count, bigger budgets, right? So for MLS teams and all like my trusted friends in the space, it's, we're talking,

all the time about, like what is your data warehousing contract look like? What are you exploring? What are you guys trying to accomplish? Right. And I think that obviously everybody wants to say, well, let's take it in house. We'll refresh data as much as we want. We're going to hire engineers. Right. But that when it comes August, September, and you have to submit your budget proposal, it is tough for like a BI team, which doesn't necessarily make money on the surface. I would argue otherwise is asking for all these toys. Right.

Sean Callanan (24:14.66)
Yeah.

Nick Makarov (24:17.148)
but, yeah, I think that honestly, it's like the simplest use case for a growing BI team is, live match day reporting rather than logging onto five different dashboards and portals. Let's build something in-house that our president can check that our team leaders can check that leads to real time decisions, right? There's so much in sport that has to be decided ahead of time that getting that marginal revenue day of is, is crucial for growth. And I think that.

BI teams can be the source of that marginal growth given the right tools. So I think that just kind of 10, 15 years ago, organizations made that step into the data warehousing space, into data visualization and sort of enhanced reporting. And I think we're at another inflection point. And I think that it's not gonna be a drastic step, but I think it's like, don't give me all the keys, give me some of the keys, right? Let me take a look at the ETL processes,

code that cleans the data, right? Let me set a custom refresh schedule on match day specifically. It doesn't have to be all the time. Let me educate the rest of the business on what variable costs look like here. That's probably the biggest hurdle is usually a warehouse is just one bottom line budget item. But here's like when you're storing data in an S3 bucket or something similar.

and then you are spending money anytime you click on a dashboard or run a certain query. That's a huge culture shift and nerve wracking for leadership. So it's a huge internal exercise to convince presidents, CFOs, head of BI to make that leap. And it's just like, it's the conversations that I obviously get pretty animated about today.

Sean Callanan (26:07.023)
I know, absolutely. But it's also because there's so many now either tools or just more interoperability around these tools that allow you to, I can get in there and I can do that. And it is a per call or per operation type of thing that, you know, the right person that knows the differences between those two things can, you know, make that make that connection. you know, you're not like Chevy Chase putting the Christmas lights together. Like, you know, you can get that that piece. And so there is more opportunity. And it's just a matter of

Nick Makarov (26:31.0)
Yeah, 100%.

Sean Callanan (26:36.707)
figuring out one, I mean, almost the fact that, know, that, you know, how these tools will result in that bottom line. Like you said, those decisions to be made. And it's not as a, it's not a big as part of a budget as it once was to say, hey, we need to roll this out. And it's not a full system. It's, I just need, you know, something to connect these two and I can either use a tool to do it or I can, you know, I can build a…

build it ourselves. And so that sort of definitely opens that piece up.

Nick Makarov (27:09.356)
Yeah, mean, it's, I think you just wait for that light bulb moment, right? You build something cool and you want somebody to ask for more of that, right? So it's, it's understanding what's going to turn the most heads on a match day, right? I think match day is just this, this beast that we, all want to tackle, right? Because it's like, it's sort of that, that action movie setting, you know, kind of like, this is happening right now. And if we can put our name on something, like a decision that was made,

during the match that led to X increased revenue or scans or eyeballs or people in seats. And that's the thing with soccer too, is every second counts because people are in their seats most of the time. It's 45 minutes and then some of nonstop action. And it's tough to promise year over year growth with such a rigid match day schedule. So it's.

How are getting people in the building earlier? And once they're in, how can we capitalize on that? And we can say yes to every toll we can nod on every like vendor demo and say, this is great, but you really just have to pick your battles and know like, okay, you gotta know your audience. Not everybody's gonna wanna hear the same thing. What's important to that have partnerships is different than what's important to that have marketing in some cases. And that's where the storytelling come to come back to that is like, okay, just.

acknowledging those differences outright, but then saying, okay, we've got this cool tool, whether it's like an enhanced app product or enhanced warehousing product. You just got to have those use cases and those like those sort of dominoes quick wins. You got to have those ready to go. Cause I feel like so many vendors come to us with the entire picture, like spend an obscene amount of money and five years from now you will be the most cutting edge organization in sports.

It's kind of like, we would just like to kind of perfect mobile ordering first. How about that? know, like it's just those quick wins and kind of keeping that grocery list and just being aware of the calendar year and what we need to operate on it at any given point. So many, so many different variables. What I liken it to is if you dump a bucket of tennis balls in front of a dog, it's going to end up with nothing in its mouth. So you just got to be a little bit more targeted, think.

Sean Callanan (29:32.867)
But also that point of, I guess, engineering resources and the fact that the developments in AI and pair programming and talking to a Claude or a cursor to help you do something. The cost of effectively an engineer is going down, whether that's because of these tools or your current team can take on some of those things. How do you start some of those smaller projects to show that those wins to

to do that storytelling to say, hey, here's what we can do, if we free ourselves up or have a resource that is actually maximized by using some of these tools.

Nick Makarov (30:13.528)
Yeah, it's a great question, especially. I think the, engineer conversation happens hand in hand with the warehousing Lake housing conversation. Cause it's like, no matter what your opinions are at the end of the day, you are either tasking your existing team with learning data engineering or you're hiring a data engineer and both are costly in different ways. Right. Like I think every BI teams in the business of, finding new time, which is very hard to do. so you do have to lean on, on some of those, those resources that are out there now.

just in the AI space. think we were a little AI averse, honestly, call it a year or two ago, because just so many products were rushed to market. It almost felt like, you your computer gets a virus because you download LimeWire back in the day and you get nonstop windows popping up. That's kind of what like AI vendors felt like a year or two ago. So we just because we go through such an arduous like vendor vetting process, we're like, let's let's take a deep breath and what we feel like.

the use cases will present themselves to us. And I think an easy one is is Tableau Pulse, right? A tool that we're using already adds an AI feature that's like, okay, we're gonna build these like simple mobile dashboards for you just using AI technology, right? And Tableau's got, you're building your desktop version and then you have to double check the mobile version too. like, like leaning on Tableau Pulse for a quick win like that, all you're waiting for then is,

the president to say like, hey, this is actually really nifty. How are you doing this? You're like, boom, hook, line, sinker. Let's talk about AI. Let's talk about how much it costs. Let's talk about what it replaces, right? And I do think visualization is, I think, in my own opinion, the space that's most ripe in sports business for the AI usage, just because

Every stakeholder has got a different approach. It's tough to build a dashboard that has the exact right filters for everybody. And if you do build that dashboard, it's massive in size and compute. Right. So I think that I'm bullish on AI and the visualization space. And then honestly, it's like, when it comes to engineering, I I do think every BI team would want a data engineer on staff. But really like just as simple a use case as,

Nick Makarov (32:33.024)
being given those keys to view and or edit an ETL job, a data cleaning job, and putting that code into chat GPT and being like, hey, we actually want to accomplish this with the clean. We want to add a column. We want to present the data this way instead. That usually gets you across the line, right? So it's understanding what a full-time or part-time data engineer can get you against what

open-sourced AI tools can get you on the fly.

Sean Callanan (33:05.849)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is a case of, you know, if it gets you 90%, you still need the knowledge to be able to debug and fix it and that kind of stuff. it's, you know, we're not quite in a no code world, but someone who knows how to code can apply those tools and, you know, productivity and those kinds of things. So think it's always exciting. And I agree that that visualization piece that, you know, how far are we away from, you know, your exec saying, I want this and…

the tool or the mesh up of, as long as you've got your data infrastructure, it can present that piece. Wonder how far away we are from that. I did want to ask you, you have been an industry hopper. Have you got advice for people who trying to seek a role in the world of sports? Is there a particular tool set or skill set that they should be looking at and tackling now?

Nick Makarov (33:59.298)
Yeah, sure. mean, I like technical skills. Definitely important, right? I think I'm of the stance that because everything in statistical programming changes so rapidly and because there's such a robust community of people bettering these languages and resources, I'm not looking for one specific language. I'm looking for proof of statistical thinking first and foremost. That could be SQL, R, Python, anything else. And anything else that you're learning in school at the time. I'm sure there are

There are students learning stuff in school right now that I've never heard of, right? So there's like a never for me to stay up to speed as well. So I would say like it doesn't have to be one specific one in my opinion, just be able to showcase proof of that way of thinking. And then layering on that storytelling component, tell me about this project, tell me about your findings, but don't spend 10 minutes doing it. Don't spend five seconds talking to me about it, right? Like understanding that sweet spot.

why you undertook the research, what's challenges in cleaning, what you thought you were gonna find versus what you actually found and then what you did because of it, right? Having that structure, that story down pat, I think is massive. And I think just being open-minded too, just in terms of the people you're talking to, definitely reach out on LinkedIn. I think a lot of people in sports are just willing to chat because they know it's a hard industry to get into.

I tell anybody interested in sports to be willing to move, just mathematically much harder to find a job in one specific market rather than one around the country or around the world. And I think too, like because this, guess, because I'm in such a technical space and many, many like minds are showcase your personality. Like it's, I think it's very easy to get, to get lost in the sauce and talk nothing but shop, but that, you know,

could I sit next to this person for five days a week test still very much exists. And I think I say that too, I feel like I'm an old man yelling at a cloud, but like in a majority work from home culture world, I think a lot of sports operations are still in person. So there are just legitimately students that are getting used to this work from home lifestyle that are kind of thrown into an environment that's

Nick Makarov (36:21.956)
old-fashioned in certain ways, right? And like just understanding office etiquette and kind of, you know, when to put your head down, when to go on a walk with a coworker, that's foreign to a lot of students now. And I don't envy that, but it is important in sports, I think.

Sean Callanan (36:36.869)
It is a really good point over the past five years how that has either been a lost skill or it's a skill that people are relearning. And sport is one that brings everyone together. You have got game days, you do have the peaks and drops of stress around when a home game is on and when an away game is on. So yeah, it's sometimes hard to translate that through a Zoom screen.

Nick Makarov (36:44.74)
Sure.

Nick Makarov (37:00.162)
Yeah, absolutely.

Sean Callanan (37:02.873)
Nick, really appreciate taking the time. We want to make sure we get you out before someone comes and knocks on the conference door and says, get out. I want to get to the sports gear closing five. Do you remember the first sports event you ever attended?

Nick Makarov (37:09.812)
We're good. I'm holding my ground.

Nick Makarov (37:17.26)
Yes, this is I know for a fact it was a San Jose Sharks game. So I'm from the Bay Area and we're talking like young. I was probably a fresh out babies. I don't remember that one, but I know it's a San Jose Sharks game. The one I remember first was a San Francisco Giants game and I remember it because I was targeted by some, you know, match day staff to to read out like the the the lineup prior to the game and.

Sean Callanan (37:28.355)
Yeah.

Sean Callanan (37:41.881)
Yep.

Nick Makarov (37:44.152)
both mortifying and exciting, like definitely a core memory. But that was right around the time where like, you know, I'll defend Barry Bonds to the day I die just because he got me, that's why I'm a Giants fan. And the first time I saw Barry play, I got to say his name over the loud speaker.

Sean Callanan (38:01.599)
well that's a terrific, terrific experience. You would have been a lot of different sports events in your time. Do you have a favourite food memory or a go-to food at a sports event?

Nick Makarov (38:10.452)
Yeah, I think it's it's it's kind of it's almost like associative food, right? So like the Giants anytime I walk into Oracle Park, it's like I need garlic fries. It's just kind of a tick in my body just getting this Gordon Biersch garlic fries is a must for me. But nowadays, I think, you know, it's it's I think it's a good mark of a BI team if the requests you're getting on matchday aren't like reporting in nature.

and I say that because now it's tradition for, for like the BI crew to, get KSO before kickoff. and if the case was not there when I get there, people like Nick, where's the case? So that's an indicator to me that all the reports are working and firing. if that's, I'm asked to go get the case. but yeah, another associative one.

Sean Callanan (38:52.677)
That's terrific. What's the first app you open in the morning?

Nick Makarov (38:59.577)
This is going to sound like a brag, but I have trained myself to open Duolingo. First thing. just, got a.

Sean Callanan (39:06.189)
Okay. Well, how long is this? Just checking what you're streak at.

Nick Makarov (39:09.972)
Yeah, I'll give you the exact number. about that? Because it's such a high number, it's hard to remember. But right now we are sitting at

Nick Makarov (39:23.46)
1290. So Russian, I come from a Russian background and I don't really have that many opportunities to practice. So it started Duolingo up like four years ago. And thankfully the Russian module has like a very quick like alphabet exercise thing that I can, if I have a busy day and I can't do Duolingo that often, I can still keep the streak if I just do that first, right? When I wake up. But

Sean Callanan (39:25.443)
Okay, and what are you proficient in now?

Sean Callanan (39:49.157)
Yep.

Nick Makarov (39:53.43)
On the weekends, it's definitely Instagram. It's like checking out people's weekends and who I should feel FOMO for and who I shouldn't. yeah, during the week when I'm in the middle of the routine, it's Duolingo. And another full circle opportunity, it does help with the BI translation exercise, right? Just kind of training your mind to think that way.

Sean Callanan (40:15.117)
Yep. I mean, the gamification of Duolingo, know, 1200 days in a row, like it is something that is obviously always studied, but it is something, you know, the stickiness and bringing people back is amazing. Do you have someone that you follow that you should that you suggest the podcast listeners should follow and why?

Nick Makarov (40:22.884)
100%. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Makarov (40:33.104)
I do think that there's a clear no brainer here. think he's carved out a very compelling niche in the space is Joe Pompliano. I think that, just it's, it's all very like palatable, I think in what he writes about what he, what he posts on, socials. And I think that, not to say the sports business was untapped, but it didn't really feel like anybody was necessarily doing it right. Right. Like, like, I mean, your podcast is fantastic. His LinkedIn posts.

really like kind of shed light on just the larger industry. It's it's like micro with Sean Callanan, macro with Joe. And I think that both of those approaches are very important. I mean, I Joon Lee is also a pretty compelling sports business writer. I'm a fan of his. And then I think that like, I, other than that, I have a balance between like the sports quants and just like culture, right? So.

Sean Callanan (41:08.451)
Yeah.

Nick Makarov (41:28.588)
On the quantitative side, I'm a huge hockey fan. like, I mean, I don't actually know if I know how to say his last name right. So hopefully he doesn't listen to this broadcast. Dom Luszczyszyn, fantastic hockey mind. know, Patrick Bacon's also up there. So like those nerds, but then also like listening to Spittin Chiclets and reading Sara Civian articles. And I think culture is very important. On the soccer side, I love the Cooligans. I love

I love the shirtless plantain show. The entire CBS crew, I like follow on social and they feel like family. Like Aaron West, Jenny Chiu, Nico Cantor, Christine Cupo. But yeah, I do think that you gotta balance your own timelines, right? Like your own feeds and make sure you've got a little bit of numbers talk, a little bit of culture talk. But then as it pertains to sports business specifically, yeah, I Joe Pompliano is doing it best.

Sean Callanan (42:27.631)
I mean, it goes back to that point of the way that he's brought storytelling to those, some of those sports business, you know, facts or nuggets to, so Hams going to dive a little bit deeper to give both interest to in market, like people in the, in the biz, but then also there is that curiosity outside of the biz to go, I didn't, didn't realize that's how the super bowl operated or, know, the business of an all-star game. Those kinds of things does a terrific job. Lastly, I asked people what social media platform is.

Nick Makarov (42:51.235)
Right.

Sean Callanan (42:56.737)
is your MVP and you can answer it personally and then you can talk about potentially what it looks like from an analytics and an Austin FC point of view.

Nick Makarov (43:05.846)
Yeah, I certainly, I'm glad you gave me that out because I grappled with this one. I think that, no, I've been like, you know, a Twitter, Instagram user for a very long time. And I think Twitter's changed quite a bit in my opinion of the last couple of years. And it's still fun chaos, but it almost feels like, you know, prime doom scrolling at this point. Like you don't really know how to sift between the noise. So

Sean Callanan (43:30.106)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Makarov (43:34.198)
I was like, wow, am I really going to say this on the podcast? I think for, for sports business, think LinkedIn is the MVP at this point. Like, don't get me wrong. I don't condone personally. Like the, the people that try to grab onto viral moments is like, here's what Moo Deng the hippo taught me about B2B sales. Like I think that stuff's ridiculous. I don't want to advocate for that.

Sean Callanan (43:53.157)
Yeah, unless unless you're an Olympic gold medalist, the Olympic gold medalist that did that and said, this is what winning Olympic gold medal taught me. And he did that. And that was a good, good meme. But I agree with you on that point.

Nick Makarov (44:06.08)
Yeah, no, but I do think that like the, Joe Pompulianos of the world, just like palatable news and just you knowing that you're going to talk to, to real people and connect with real people, which you can't really say on other social media sites for certain. Right. so from a business perspective, sports business perspective, think LinkedIn's MVP, but I mean, yeah, it's in terms of just keeping up with people's lives and, staying in touch with people. I would advocate for Instagram. And like, I just think that.

Nick Makarov (44:33.932)
In terms of the culture, the personality, that part of your life, think Instagram's king. But for career building and just staying in the know for whatever it is your job is, think LinkedIn has done a great job.

Sean Callanan (44:48.345)
And I think it's great advice and it's a reminder to anyone listening to this now, go on LinkedIn and do that storytelling of your latest success. Like what have you just won or done well at work? Because something that's minor to you is a breakthrough for someone else. And then that's the one that keeps one. That's why we're going back on LinkedIn. And that's the one you do want to connect with. You do want to hear of someone else in the MLS having a big win and you want to celebrate it or…

Sean Callanan (45:16.013)
you know, seeing a colleague that's doing something similar in, you know, the NBA or even like you said before, culture, like other entertainment, what are they doing in music? What are they doing in film and streaming that we can apply in sport? Like, that's where I think LinkedIn, you know, I don't think there's any shame in it. It has been nominated before. I think it is the MVP from a sports business point of

Nick Makarov (45:24.408)
Yeah, bingo.

Nick Makarov (45:37.58)
Yeah, no, I'm glad you agree. Like I, you know, I feared I would come off like a total loser, but now we got power in numbers. Now there's a LinkedIn champion community and that's good to hear.

Sean Callanan (45:48.549)
Not a problem at all. Nick Makarov, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. I always ask people who are listening to the podcast to reach out and say thanks. What is the best way for people to do that with you?

Nick Makarov (46:01.376)
Yeah, let's keep it going. I say hit me up on LinkedIn. I respond to most DMs that aren't in-mail. So don't use in-mail if that's what you thought. But yeah, no, happy to chat with anybody. I love these conversations. We're all geeks at the end of the day. And looking forward to getting to know more people.

Sean Callanan (46:21.957)
Well, thank you very much and all the best for 2025 for Austin FC.

Nick Makarov (46:26.158)
Yeah, it's, mean, beers at Nickel City on me when you're in town for South By again.

Nick Makarov (46:34.084)
Alright, thanks, Sean